Nebari development in Siam

[Anonymous User]

What's wrong with you-----?! No-one's time is wasted here unless it is they that choose waste it. To accuse somone else of wasting your time is like sticking your foot in the fire and complaining of the heat. It's an argument that has no merrit and only suggest a deeper resentment not founded on the subject at hand------In other words it's personal.

Vance,

That summed it up perfectly, I won't waste my time adding to your words.


Will

 

[king kong]

Praise the Lord!

 

[Vance Wood]

Praise the Lord!

I agree, if there was a lot more of that--- there would be a lot less of the other.

 

[TheSteve]

Why don't you describe the technique used to achieve this growth

I will release these treasured secrets to amazing nebari but I expect it never to leave these rooms (or whatever room you're in). Pay attention because I'm only going to type this once.

1)In the fall go to Home Depot. There will be potted trees there on clearance. They are balled and burlapped trees in disguise. (gasp)

2)Buy a flowering crabapple (the decorative not the fruiting)

3)Take it home and set it on the ground and do nothing but feed and water it for the next 3 or 4 years. (nobody said bonsai was quick)

4)Notice roots growing from holes in nursery pot.

5)Slay those roots.

6)Savagely trunk chop said crabapple for a broom style tree since it's straight unappealing landscape trunk is worthless for anything else but the trees were cheap so you had to buy them.

7)Ignore for one more year.

8)Decide to quickly do root work in between rain storms one evening.

9)Notice two layers of root systems where the tree ground layered itself years ago. The roots will be perfect and you will be standing in the dark during a rainstorm wondering why that never happens if you try to do it on purpose.

10) Just accept it's the way of things, chop the bottom roots off and allow new root system to thicken into a heated debate causeing nebari.

Have a nice day.

 

[Chris Johnston]

I am surprised to hear this and I disagree on many levels with the thoughts put forth here. This borders on the old "it's all subjective" cop out that is usually put for by the ignorati of art, or the retardataire, the French term for latecomer or for those bringing up the rear.

Take crap in a jar, for example, some like it, some think it is art, so by the logic above, it, or anything else under the sun, is art and is acceptable, because some may like it. By the same logic, a stick in a pot is acceptable because some may like it, dead bonsai are acceptable because some may like them.....even fake bonsai are acceptable, because some people like them....still subjective?

Will

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but here's where I seem to see some sort of contradiction within your arguments. According to your philosophy that art is what critics or the art powers-that-be says it is, "crap in a jar" (or, more specifically, an un-manipulated urinal, or a crucifix in urine, etc.) actually IS art. THAT is the subjectivism to which I object.


Chris

 

[Anonymous User]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but here's where I seem to see some sort of contradiction within your arguments. According to your philosophy that art is what critics or the art powers-that-be says it is, "crap in a jar" (or, more specifically, an un-manipulated urinal, or a crucifix in urine, etc.) actually IS art. THAT is the subjectivism to which I object.

Unfortunately, your objections do not and will not influence the art community. There are also many who do not see the "art" in the Mona Lisa, so what? The thoughts of the retardataire do not matter in the least. The fact is that the examples you mentioned above made it as art, they were accepted by critics, accepted by the gallery owners, and allowed into the fine art community.

And as I said before, you do not have to like it, but that is the way it is. The subjectivism is yours and you're welcome to it, but it doesn't change a thing, sorry.


Will

 

[Chris Johnston]

I am surprised to hear this and I disagree on many levels with the thoughts put forth here. This borders on the old "it's all subjective" cop out that is usually put for by the ignorati of art, or the retardataire, the French term for latecomer or for those bringing up the rear.

Take crap in a jar, for example, some like it, some think it is art, so by the logic above, it, or anything else under the sun, is art and is acceptable, because some may like it. By the same logic, a stick in a pot is acceptable because some may like it, dead bonsai are acceptable because some may like them.....even fake bonsai are acceptable, because some people like them....still subjective?

Will

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but here's where I seem to see some sort of contradiction within your arguments. According to your philosophy that art is what critics or the art powers-that-be says it is, "crap in a jar" (or, more specifically, an un-manipulated urinal, or a crucifix in urine, etc.) actually IS art. THAT is the subjectivism to which I object.


Chris

Unfortunately, your objections do not and will not influence the art community. There are also many who do not see the "art" in the Mona Lisa, so what? The thoughts of the retardataire do not matter in the least. The fact is that the examples you mentioned above made it as art, they were accepted by critics, accepted by the gallery owners, and allowed into the fine art community.

And as I said before, you do not have to like it, but that is the way it is. The subjectivism is yours and you're welcome to it, but it doesn't change a thing, sorry.


Will

Once again you are trying to change the subject. Your posts contradict themselves unless you wish to define it a little closer. "Crap in a jar" isn't art because some people like it, it's "art" because the right people like it. As a definition of the political art world, I guess that's true. As objectivity goes, however, that's as far from it as anything could possibly be.

By the way, thanks for finding a way to call others "ignorant" and "retarded" with plausible deniability. It really helps.

Chris

 

[Anonymous User]

Once again you are trying to change the subject.

Huh? The subject here is the super-nebari brought up by Bnut, my words are in response to your continued attempts to change the subject back to the same old debate you have failed with many times over the years.

By the way, thanks for finding a way to call others "ignorant" and "retarded" with plausible deniability. It really helps.

I can take no credit for these terms, they have been used in the Art world for quite some time, in fact the french term "retardataire" has been in use for centuries and is usually the opposite of the avant grade. Walter Pall usually just refers to those uneducated in bonsai (or art) as ignorants, which is not uncommon in any form or expression, writing, scupting, painting, etc.

I am glad I could add to your vocabulary though,


Will

 

[king kong]

This is so fascinating hearing Mr. Heath's diatribe about French history. Are we going to learn about the origin of the minuet in the 18 century life in France? Yet Mr. Heath has no idea about the subject at hand. How do the Thai make bonsai look like the original picture? What planet is this guy from? Are there any hollow planets?

 

[TheSteve]

So much for making a splash with my flawless new technique.

 

[TheSteve]

Not to interrupt all this love with a tree pic but here's those roots. about 16" in diameter (the roots):

 

[king kong]

You are getting warm The Steve. There is a term in the design field. Form follows function. This is the principle associated with architecture and design. The shape of a building or object should be primarily based upon its intended purpose or function.
Now in the bonsai world I use the term form follows technique. So whatever technique you sellect to propogate and grow a tree, there should be an final design goal in mind and a method to getting there. Making comment of the final product is an ability we all hold. But getting to a design form from scratch is a unique ability that requires a technique if it is to be done on consistent basis.

 

[Chris Johnston]

You are getting warm The Steve. There is a term in the design field. Form follows function. This is the principle associated with architecture and design. The shape of a building or object should be primarily based upon its intended purpose or function.
Now in the bonsai world I use the term form follows technique. So whatever technique you sellect to propogate and grow a tree, there should be an final design goal in mind and a method to getting there. Making comment of the final product is an ability we all hold. But getting to a design form from scratch is a unique ability that requires a technique if it is to be done on consistent basis.

Amen!

Although I don't always agree with the old saying, it could be paraphrased thus:

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't do either, become critics."

Chris

 

[Chris Johnston]

Grammer and syntax, but that's just nit picking

At what point dooes nebari defeat the purpose and become over bearing?


Will

I agree with you. I also agree on the last tree and the nebari on it.

The dinner plate nebari sometimes seems too "man made" to me and often distracts from the "whole" image. such as a bad choice of pot would, or apex branching that was too thick....I guess it becomes a liability instead of an asset after a certain point.




Will

Not really, the fused "dinner plate" nebari can be compared to the trunk thickness, which is unlikely to change noticeably in a pot environment. Many times this results in a surreal image, which isn't all bad by itself, but can be if the nebari becomes the main focal point, causing a sense of unbalance.

In example, let's think of an inverse taper on a tree that still needs ramification, would we say that the new foliage might "balance" the tree which is in process? No, I think the tree, even with ramification, would still have the inverse taper.

While viewing trees that are in advanced states and which have the "dinner plate" nebari, I have found that in many cases, the nebari over powers the tree. Yet, as in the case of the thick trunks on Sumo bonsai, sometimes it works, other times it is just too distracting.


Will

I agree. My point was and still is that things can be over developed to the point of distraction, as some of the nebari shown are in danger of.

You said everyone likes the last tree because it is developed, I differ, look at the nebari on that tree compared to the "dinner plate" nebari on some of the others, there is a huge difference.


What? This is done all the time, on a daily basis here and on other sites. You most certainly can critique a tree based on the balance of the nebari, trunk movement, texture, etc if that is all you are critiquing.

However, there was no critique at all here, the question I posed was simply, "At what point does nebari defeat the purpose and become over bearing?"

Is there a point?


No one made "assumptions with regard to style or "cookie cutter"-ness" here.




As always. But "At what point does nebari defeat the purpose and become over bearing?"


Will

Martin,

Good points, thanks.


Jason,

So are you saying there is no point that nebari can become distractive?

I couldn't help but to notice that you dropped a few names with the pictures you posted, names really don't change the visual presented, just the perception of some viewers. That being said, I only see two "dinner plates" in your examples (#1 and #5) and neither of Kimura's would qualify.

The first photo you posted is a good example, the nebari is obviously unbalanced, presents a frog leg image from the view shown. Personally, master created or not, I would say this tree had poor nebari and would wager that there is some hack back and root grafts in its future.

While I always appreciate looking at trees, again the point was not to critique, but instead to simply discuss the possibility that with "dinner plate" nebari there is a point that it becomes distractive.




Will

Anyhow....

I personally feel that there is a point where nebari can become counter productive and distract from the image being presented. Nebari can be over done, as can any other part of a bonsai, like the ramification Bnut mentioned in this thread and showed in another. Of course, we need ramification for a bonsai to be successful, but over doing it can be just as bad as not having any at all.

In most styles, Nebari is a needed component in bonsai, it adds stability to the image and enhances the illusion of an ancient tree. Some styles, such as Literati, can be without nebari and still be successful visually.

The newer trend in ficus toward "dinner plate" nebari in which the roots have fused into a solid single mass goes beyond the needed stability, balance, and illusion, creates an almost surreal image, that presents new challenges for the artist for design.

Nebari is good, too much nebari can be bad, if the visual weight distracts from the total image. In many cases of this "Super Nebari" it seems just a race to see who can create the most fused, widest, and flattest nebari, so much so that the trunk, branching, and foliage become just add on accessories. However, those that do work, work extremely well.






Will

There are many ways, one of which is growth of roots on a cone shaped form, similar to the form they use for fusing seedings together for fused bonsai. Then the roots are flattened as much as possible, but close examination of some of these "dinner plate" nebari bonsai will reveal a cone shaped lower trunk, which is mostly hollow inside. Another way is simple time and good nebari management, eventually, especially with ficus, the roots will fused together, forming a flatter, lava flow look.

That being said, this thread really wasn't about how such nebari are formed, nor on who can create them, instead it was on the visual success, or lack of it on such nebari.

I hope this helps you,



Will

I already explained how it is done. in fact I posted two techniques that are commonly used to create such nebari. If you wish to dispute what I have posted, please do so, but don't ignore the facts presented.

You seem once again determined to incite an argument, continuation of this practice will only lead to you being put back on my ignore list. I hope this isn't the case and that an intelligent discussion can be had here.


Do they look real? I believe your choice of words confuses the issue, how can they not look real, they are real, we are not talking about painting or drawing subjects where such a discussion as to if they look real could be relevant. Instead we are using actual real subject matter, of course they are real.

I believe you are attempting to ask if they look natural, as in if such images are represented in nature. If this is the case, it doesn't matter if they are represented in nature or not, artistically speaking. All that matters is if the resulting image is visually pleasing.

Artistically, many bonsai artists are chained to a natural image of an ancient tree growing in nature and creations are all too often judged on if they appear natural. Some artists are breaking these chains and experimenting with different forms, some tree-like with exaggerated features, such as sumos,super-nebari trees, and massive deadwood, others with abstract forms that are very un-tree-like. Some are using materials, pots, and items that are surreal and very untraditional, think Nick Lenz here.

Painters and sculptors in the past imitated nature, soon impressionist, cubists, and others broke from duplicating or recording life and started expressing it instead. Bonsai is sure to follow this path.

So, back to your comment, it doesn't matter if they look natural, what matters is if they succeed visually and.....like I said, I think that these super-nebari trees can reach a point to where the nebari visually overpowers the image presented and thus, fails.



While this may be true, it does not by any means assure success, which is the point of my comments on this thread.



Will

Huh? The subject here is the super-nebari brought up by Bnut, my words are in response to your continued attempts to change the subject back to the same old debate you have failed with many times over the years.



I can take no credit for these terms, they have been used in the Art world for quite some time, in fact the french term "retardataire" has been in use for centuries and is usually the opposite of the avant grade. Walter Pall usually just refers to those uneducated in bonsai (or art) as ignorants, which is not uncommon in any form or expression, writing, scupting, painting, etc.

I am glad I could add to your vocabulary though,


Will

You were the one who turned this into critique of the idea of large nebari. Bnut posted this display of amazing nebari, apparently being the only one here (with the exception of Walter, who called in to support you) who decided to call into question the artistic desirability of these types of things.

And don't flatter yourself. When your own articles and posts are free from terrible "grammer" and syntax, you will have a long way to go to add to my vocabulary.

Chris

 

[Anonymous User]

You were the one who turned this into critique of the idea of large nebari. Bnut posted this display of amazing nebari, apparently being the only one here (with the exception of Walter, who called in to support you) who decided to call into question the artistic desirability of these types of things.

And don't flatter yourself. When your own articles and posts are free from terrible "grammer" and syntax, you will have a long way to go to add to my vocabulary.

Chris

Chris,

Your fixtation on me is showing.

Reading through all the quotes of mine you have collected, it is quite obvious that my main point throughout this thread is that there is a point where such nebari becomes counterproductive. I have continually brought the discussion back to this point over and over again, you yourself agreed with this point, as have many others. Why you feel that you must try to make it more is just evidence of your own agenda.

Stay on the subject, if you can, leave your obvious personal agenda out of it.

Oh, and as to my writing, when you match my own accomplishments in that field, then your opinion might carry some weight, until then, sorry.



Will

 

[king kong]

Amen!

Although I don't always agree with the old saying, it could be paraphrased thus:

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't do either, become critics."

Chris

I think that is accurate to a degree. It is sad to think that many critics have no idea how certain things are accomplished. To me, a respected critic must have a thorough understanding of all the working parts before sounding off.

 

[Anonymous User]

Amen!

Although I don't always agree with the old saying, it could be paraphrased thus:

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't do either, become critics."

Here we go again with the induendos, slights, and veiled insults, so let's have at it then, but with the truth, shall we?

In response:

You have spent 10 years studying under Boon and you do not have one single showable bonsai to your name and yet you accuse others of not doing bonsai. You present yourself as a Japanese Black Pine expert and have not a single bonsai of this species that could be called advanced. You, like a cyber-stalker, follow me from thread to thread, forum to forum and always mange to incite a heated debate, and yet, you have absolutely no accomplishments in the bonsai community at all. Most claim your actions are the result of a distirbed fixation on myself that stems from a serious case of envy.

I have just 5 years in bonsai, never been formally instructed, and guess what, not only can I do bonsai, but I teach, review, write, and critque as well. You like to suggest that I can not do bonsai, but I'll put my bonsai up against yours any day of the week, even with your instruction under Boon and twice the time in bonsai as myself.

I'd also offer to put my contributions to the bonsai community, or my publishing credits, or my teaching credits up against yours as well, but that would be so one-sided on my part that it would be unethical and be like slapping a passed-out drunk.

So, as you like to say, put up or shut up Chris, you have nothing on me, I have came farther in bonsai in half the time and without instruction than you ever will.

You are nothing more than a envious, cyber-stalking wanna-be, who spends more time trying to defame others and tear down good things than anything else. You add nothing to the community and have accomplished nothing good at all. Your venom and obvious hatred pollutes anything you do and, in my opinion, you are an embrassment to the art and especially so to your teacher.

In closing, you said "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't do either, become critics."

I'll add....."and those that can do all of these things are attacked by those that can do none of them."


Thanks for proving my point, once again.



Will

 

[king kong]

I am Magnus Healthus Maximus, the self appointed and proclaimed ruler and commander of planet bonsai and I eat, do, teach, review, and critique all bonsai for you to see how indispensable I am. Just don't bother me with the details all right?

 

[Chris Johnston]

Here we go again with the induendos, slights, and veiled insults, so let's have at it then, but with the truth, shall we?

Oh boy, here it comes...you started all this with innuendo about ignorant and retardataire, so lets keep the record straight.

In response:

You have spent 10 years studying under Boon (my first class with Boon was in 2003 which makes it 6 years I have known him, and do not claim to have graduated from his course) and you do not have one single showable bonsai to your name (while I believe this is true, the reason that it is, is because we disagree on what's showable. I have a much higher standard than you) and yet you accuse others of not doing bonsai. (I never accused you of not doing bonsai, just speaking above your ability and understanding) You present yourself as a Japanese Black Pine expert (on the contrary, I have never claimed in any forum or any chat to be an expert in Japanese black pine or anything else. Others seek me out and seem to find my teaching quite pleasant and informative. How was your "Art and Design Study Group?") and have not a single bonsai of this species that could be called advanced. You, like a cyber-stalker, follow me from thread to thread, forum to forum and always mange to incite a heated debate, (I think many have seen the light of truth in this matter and it's really you who has done what you accuse me of doing.) and yet, you have absolutely no accomplishments in the bonsai community at all. (I don't seek "accomplishments in the bonsai community. I seek to learn as much as I can and share as much as I can, and make my trees the best they can be. In spite of that, clubs from around the country have sought me out to reprint some of my articles in their newsletters. I do not promote myself to make myself seem important.) Most (so now you are "most?") claim your actions are the result of a distirbed fixation on myself that stems from a serious case of envy.

I have just 5 years in bonsai, (although you claimed 8 years to give yourself an aura of respectability when you had zero) never been formally instructed, (I'm shocked, SHOCKED) and guess what, not only can I do bonsai, but I teach, review, write, and critque as well. You like to suggest that I can not do bonsai, (once again your weak ego is reading more into that than there was, but there you go) but I'll put my bonsai up against yours any day of the week, even with your instruction under Boon and twice the time in bonsai as myself. (Are you telling me to put up or shut up? I thought you were above that, and the ability to be a critic did not depend on the ability to do.)

I'd also offer to put my contributions to the bonsai community, or my publishing credits, or my teaching credits up against yours as well, but that would be so one-sided on my part that it would be unethical and be like slapping a drunk. (Contributions schmontributions, almost everyone knows you do it for yourself. I don't have a problem with that, except you claim it's for us. Ick.)

So, as you like to say, put up or shut up (OMG, you are using the phrase) Chris, you have nothing on me, I have came farther in bonsai (in web trolling, yes. In self-promoting, yes. In getting your photo taken with folks you toady to, yes. In bonsai, I doubt it.) in half the time and without instruction than you ever will.

You are nothing more than a envious, cyber-stalking wanna-be, who spends more time trying to defame others and tear down good things than you do anything else. In my opinion, you are an embrassment to the art and especially to your teacher. (Is this guy still talking and misspelling everything even though the window actually prompts for misspelled words?)

In closing, you said "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't do either, become critics."

I'll add....."and those that can do all of these things are attacked by those that can do none of them."


Thanks for proving my point, once again. (And you really wonder why editors and posters keep dropping out of your websites....hmmmm)



Will

So say we all.

 

[Mojosan]

Reading all this, I can hear that voice, speaking with that oh,so innocent look on his face..... " it depends on what your definition of Is... is...."

These threads are not about bonsai. For some it is more the fun of fighting over semantics ( Eristic?)
(nyah, nyah... you didn't dot that "i", you are such a moron..).......

There is an old saying, gentlemen, that might help....."wrestling with a muddy pig is hard, until you realize that the pig actually enjoys it."

Have a nice day....