Mugo Pine Nebari Development Advice

[Guffmeister]

Hi all,

I was hoping to get a little advice about a Mugo pine that I'm working on. It's my oldest (living) pine which I bought as a bit of a practice piece for learning about them, and after a bit of a steep learning curve over the last 6-7 years or so I feel like I've improved my knowledge massively. Unfortunately, however, being my oldest pine it's also my smallest and least impressive following years of mistreatment and mistakes, but I've grown attached to the little thing.

Hopefully you can see the tree below, with its main growth clustered at the bottom in a bushy cloud that needs sorting next year, and two sacrifice branches.


And plenty of new buds ready for next year...



However, one big rookie mistake I made all those years back when selecting the tree was the nebari. I poked around in the soil at the nursery where I bought it and felt some strong roots branching outwards and thought I was onto a winner. However, as the soil washed the top layers of soil away, the 'excellent nebari' I had envisioned in my head turned out to be a real shocker of a root system. Two fat roots branching out from the same point creating a fat knuckle, plus a weird curled up root doing some kind of loop-the-loop out of the soil. At least the sap gets a bit of a roller coaster ride out of the roots come springtime!




I gently dug down a bit today, and can see and feel a more substantial root structure below those initial top roots.



So I was mostly just looking for a bit of advice for the best way to develop these roots. I am quite sure that that knuckle that's formed will probably never go away, and I'll just have to put this down to experience, but I also think that with a few years of the sacrifice branch extending and the better root system below it flaring out that it might be able to be masked somewhat. I have no idea how many roots are attached to the top roots so I'm reluctant to cut them, but they need to be removed soon to stop the reverse taper from worsening. I was possibly thinking to just restrict them with a wire tourniquet, let the tree strengthen the other roots by itself, and maybe cut them off in a year or two. I don't intend to repot the tree for a while, so I don't know when I'll get a good look at the whole root system in completeness.

Any advice you have would be greatly welcome!

Thanks!

 

[sorce]

Nice story!

It looks as if it will grow that knuckle out and look ok if exposed further.

Vance calls them Bloooodoooodooodooodooo roots, the ones that circle around, and in your case bloodooloopdeloop!

I have cut one or 2 off in the spring on a number of mugos and have never seen ill effects. Key is cutting them and leaving them, not trying to dig them out.

Sorce

 

[Shibui]

Mugho pine is reasonably good at growing new roots. You can safely cut off one or 2 problem roots each year without harming the tree. If you bury the cut end (the end still attached to the tree) it will usually issue new roots from the cut end. Over a few years you can gradually replace all the problems.
When you have a few active surface roots going you could even remove the knuckle if you think it needs it but difficult to tell what's under there without getting the tree out and cleaning enough soil off to see what is happening down there.

Another possibility is to layer the whole trunk. It can be done.

 

[sorce]

What's that blue tie fer?

Sorce

 

[River's Edge]

Hi all,

I was hoping to get a little advice about a Mugo pine that I'm working on. It's my oldest (living) pine which I bought as a bit of a practice piece for learning about them, and after a bit of a steep learning curve over the last 6-7 years or so I feel like I've improved my knowledge massively. Unfortunately, however, being my oldest pine it's also my smallest and least impressive following years of mistreatment and mistakes, but I've grown attached to the little thing.

Hopefully you can see the tree below, with its main growth clustered at the bottom in a bushy cloud that needs sorting next year, and two sacrifice branches.
View attachment 323583

And plenty of new buds ready for next year...

View attachment 323584

However, one big rookie mistake I made all those years back when selecting the tree was the nebari. I poked around in the soil at the nursery where I bought it and felt some strong roots branching outwards and thought I was onto a winner. However, as the soil washed the top layers of soil away, the 'excellent nebari' I had envisioned in my head turned out to be a real shocker of a root system. Two fat roots branching out from the same point creating a fat knuckle, plus a weird curled up root doing some kind of loop-the-loop out of the soil. At least the sap gets a bit of a roller coaster ride out of the roots come springtime!


View attachment 323585

I gently dug down a bit today, and can see and feel a more substantial root structure below those initial top roots.

View attachment 323590

So I was mostly just looking for a bit of advice for the best way to develop these roots. I am quite sure that that knuckle that's formed will probably never go away, and I'll just have to put this down to experience, but I also think that with a few years of the sacrifice branch extending and the better root system below it flaring out that it might be able to be masked somewhat. I have no idea how many roots are attached to the top roots so I'm reluctant to cut them, but they need to be removed soon to stop the reverse taper from worsening. I was possibly thinking to just restrict them with a wire tourniquet, let the tree strengthen the other roots by itself, and maybe cut them off in a year or two. I don't intend to repot the tree for a while, so I don't know when I'll get a good look at the whole root system in completeness.

Any advice you have would be greatly welcome!

Thanks!

Your question is a great springboard for discussing the main purpose of repotting young trees more frequently to develop nebari and make gradual corrections to improve the overall appearance. When starting out with young stock there is a great opportunity to correct the root structure. The tree's are typically vigorous and respond well. Just cutting off those that appear out of place is not the best way in my opinion. proper root work can be done in stages, bare rooting sections, making choices, redirect or wire down some, remove some, straighten out others. Then repeat in another section on the next repot. Depending on the species and the time of year one can adapt the amount of work completed to match the recovery time available and the aftercare one can provide.
Just removing unsightly parts above ground will not produce any improvements to the unseen mass below!
Some of those may be needed to create a balanced nebari, and it may be possible to straighten or redirect portions of their structure.

 

[M. Frary]

What's that blue tie fer?

Sorce

Sealing off leaves of bread.

 

[Guffmeister]

Thanks all! That's really useful information.

Your question is a great springboard for discussing the main purpose of repotting young trees more frequently to develop nebari and make gradual corrections to improve the overall appearance. When starting out with young stock there is a great opportunity to correct the root structure. The tree's are typically vigorous and respond well. Just cutting off those that appear out of place is not the best way in my opinion. proper root work can be done in stages, bare rooting sections, making choices, redirect or wire down some, remove some, straighten out others. Then repeat in another section on the next repot. Depending on the species and the time of year one can adapt the amount of work completed to match the recovery time available and the aftercare one can provide.
Just removing unsightly parts above ground will not produce any improvements to the unseen mass below!
Some of those may be needed to create a balanced nebari, and it may be possible to straighten or redirect portions of their structure.

I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding my nebari development mistakes on this pine. On my other bonsai, mostly deciduous, I've been very fastidious with sorting the roots out before any serious growth goes on, and I'm pretty happy with the nebari on these plants, but that's mostly because you can get away with frequent repotting on deciduous plants. I have about 5-6 pines I've grown from seed that I was also happy to bare-root and readjust the roots multiple times while they were young before letting grow freely and thicken up. I think the issue comes with buying larger pines from nurseries that weren't intended for bonsai and thus never had much attention paid to the root layouts before being allowed to grow. I never felt comfortable being too intrusive on these plants because I didn't think they could handle it; perhaps they could have. Rather than potting these nursery pines immediately into pond baskets/colanders/the ground to thicken, do you suggest spending a few years sorting the nebari first? I don't know how else I could have improved the roots otherwise.

Here's a newer pine of mine (a Scots) which has a better root structure, but is still suffering from a few odd roots (one to the far left, and another nearest the camera). Perhaps if the roots thicken more they will start to look how I hoped they would. It feels like it's a bit more luck than judgement if you go down the nursery grown pine route.

What's that blue tie fer?

Sorce

I don't even remember to be honest. I think it was an anchor to pull one of the lower branches down as a bit of initial styling and I never took it off!

 

[sorce]

nursery pines immediately into pond baskets/

I believe this is not only the first step, but a step that allows us a new understanding of what we can do to pines at all, meaning, more frequent repotting.

Vance hasn't strayed from his Repot every 4th or 5th? Year in baskets. He's the only one we know have been using them that long, and the industry is kinda just catching on to these root Pruning pots, so there isn't a lot of information about more frequently repotting pines.

So I think, not only does a basket build a great set of roots, but that great set of roots can also be worked more often.

It makes sense if we think about the thick, running nature of a pine root tip. They take up about 3 times the space as a D root. So it makes sense that enough roots simply don't get the space to live in a pot. And, we Repot about that same 3x interval!

So a basket IS working the roots. AND helping us work the roots more too.

I think we sort of forget that making good roots means the ability to cut off more bad ones.

#basketlife

Sorce

 

[ProfessorFarnsworth]

I believe this is not only the first step, but a step that allows us a new understanding of what we can do to pines at all, meaning, more frequent repotting.

Vance hasn't strayed from his Repot every 4th or 5th? Year in baskets. He's the only one we know have been using them that long, and the industry is kinda just catching on to these root Pruning pots, so there isn't a lot of information about more frequently repotting pines.

So I think, not only does a basket build a great set of roots, but that great set of roots can also be worked more often.

It makes sense if we think about the thick, running nature of a pine root tip. They take up about 3 times the space as a D root. So it makes sense that enough roots simply don't get the space to live in a pot. And, we Repot about that same 3x interval!

So a basket IS working the roots. AND helping us work the roots more too.

I think we sort of forget that making good roots means the ability to cut off more bad ones.

#basketlife

Sorce

I just bought a little golden Mugo and have a few pond baskets around would you say it's too late in summer to try to gently transplant to a pond basket? It seems like I have some soil I could mix that could match pretty closely with the nursery soil to fill the small amount of extra space. Then do a more full soil replacement next year.

 

[Colorado]

I just bought a little golden Mugo and have a few pond baskets around would you say it's too late in summer to try to gently transplant to a pond basket? It seems like I have some soil I could mix that could match pretty closely with the nursery soil to fill the small amount of extra space. Then do a more full soil replacement next year.

I understand the desire to dig in and start working on a new tree, but your proposed plan offers zero benefit and the risk of significant detriment to the tree. It will be much better in the long run to just fertilize the crap out of it this fall, and then in the spring you can do a proper repot. The first repot on a nursery tree is often a big operation to get the roots sorted out. I’m sure someone will recommend summer repotting but for an operation that extensive I personally would only do it in the spring.

Nursery stock conifers very frequently have horrible nebari. They usually require digging down a few inches, cutting off some undesirable high roots in the process until you get down to a better root flare (and sometimes there isn’t one). It doesn’t look like that was done on the above trees (yet )

 

[ProfessorFarnsworth]

I understand the desire to dig in and start working on a new tree, but your proposed plan offers zero benefit and the risk of significant detriment to the tree. It will be much better in the long run to just fertilize the crap out of it this fall, and then in the spring you can do a proper repot. The first repot on a nursery tree is often a big operation to get the roots sorted out. I’m sure someone will recommend summer repotting but for an operation that extensive I personally would only do it in the spring.

Nursery stock conifers very frequently have horrible nebari. They usually require digging down a few inches, cutting off some undesirable high roots in the process until you get down to a better root flare (and sometimes there isn’t one). It doesn’t look like that was done on the above trees (yet )

Fair enough, I kept reading repot in summer and I went well crap if I don't get on it I'll have wait till next July. I'm not really in a hurry just figured I could get ahead a year. I'm used to spring being the right time with my other species, so when I saw summer I was caught a little off guard.

 

[sorce]

would you say it's too late in summer

I don't think so. But it doesn't sound like you are fully prepared for a good solid Repot.
Which will be necessary, due to the nature of those nursery roots.

Pics!

Sorce

 

[ProfessorFarnsworth]

I don't think so. But it doesn't sound like you are fully prepared for a good solid Repot.
Which will be necessary, due to the nature of those nursery roots.

Pics!

Sorce

Got it, I'll just wait til next year. I really wasn't ready for it. I tend to find a tree that I like and buy it thinking "I can research what to do" and so far none of it happens this time of year so I have a ton of prep time. I do have soil ingredients minus organics. I hadn't really had a chance to find out what sort of soil it would like so it doesn't hurt my feelings to wait. Most of my trees are slow progress so I've leaned into waiting when I need to.