TheSteve
Chumono
Appearantly it's an independant country:
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Siam
I'm thuroughly lost now.
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Siam
I'm thuroughly lost now.
Nebari development in Siam
- Thread starter Bonsai Nut
- Start date
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Chris Johnston
Omono
Vance,
I really like the Baroque reference and it puts the subject in a new and informative light. Thanks, it made me think in a new way about it.
All feelings aside, I go back to my earlier post. Surely there is room for personal taste in this matter. When does it become distracting? I think that will vary from tree to tree and viewer to viewer.
Are they real? As we have heard before about other things, if I can touch them, they are real!
Chris
Chris Johnston
Omono
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
After Kong's photos about growing these trees on cones, I am curious to see what these trees look like from below. I assume they are hollow? (Or at least the flared section of the trunk is)
I do not think this tree is hollow. I think this tree is getting a "trunk job". Not sure why but perhaps better cleavage. Trunk appears to have been sliced vertically on purpose.
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Attila Soos
Omono
Generally speaking, I don't see any point where the nebari can be overbearing, since there is no absolute measurement for personal taste. It CAN be overbearing to each of us individually, but not as a group (i.e.: what is overbearing to you, may not be overbearing to me; what is artistically successful to you, may not be artistically succesful to me). Some of us like these trees, others don't. Obviously, those who enjoy them cannot be told to stop liking them. It would make no sense.
My son slowly getting into watching those Japanese anime cartoons. This is a whole world into itself, you can see every imaginable creature known to mankind for the last 5,000 years. There is no such thing as a character too big or small, too ugly or saintly, the imagination has no limits. Some people love them, others couldn't care less. But one cannot deny the art and imagination that goes into them.
Bonsai can be looked at the same way. Long gone are the times where there was a single authority to set the standard. I am glad that these giant nebari are available to us. I can see the beauty in them, and I can also see that they are an exagerated figment of our imagination. They are powerful and grotesque (nature can be sometimes grotesque), but they can also be the perfection that we strive for. Whether you like it or not, it doesn't matter, for every one who does not like them, there are just as many who do.
I've often heard that bonsai doesn't have to look natural, but it needs to work artistically. This is of course true, but the question is who sets the standard for "artistic". Some people love understatement and minimalistic approach, others love exagerated and overstated effects. Some love zen, others like rennaissance and roccoco. Some would like to see a T-Rex having a powerful arm and biceps, just to create "balance". Nature doesn't think so. Go figure.
People who created these giant nebari, had a vision. They successfully realized their vision, and this is all that matters. It is not their problem whether or not we like it, it's ours.
When we create bonsai, our success depends on wheter our vision will materialize. Sometimes we do it in order to win a competition, in which case we design our bonsai to please the judges. If we know what the judges want, we can deliver it to them. Sometimes we do it in order to have pure fun, in which case all bets are off. The job of the artist is to come up with new ideas and push the boundaries, our job is to critique and argue about it
My son slowly getting into watching those Japanese anime cartoons. This is a whole world into itself, you can see every imaginable creature known to mankind for the last 5,000 years. There is no such thing as a character too big or small, too ugly or saintly, the imagination has no limits. Some people love them, others couldn't care less. But one cannot deny the art and imagination that goes into them.
Bonsai can be looked at the same way. Long gone are the times where there was a single authority to set the standard. I am glad that these giant nebari are available to us. I can see the beauty in them, and I can also see that they are an exagerated figment of our imagination. They are powerful and grotesque (nature can be sometimes grotesque), but they can also be the perfection that we strive for. Whether you like it or not, it doesn't matter, for every one who does not like them, there are just as many who do.
I've often heard that bonsai doesn't have to look natural, but it needs to work artistically. This is of course true, but the question is who sets the standard for "artistic". Some people love understatement and minimalistic approach, others love exagerated and overstated effects. Some love zen, others like rennaissance and roccoco. Some would like to see a T-Rex having a powerful arm and biceps, just to create "balance". Nature doesn't think so. Go figure.
People who created these giant nebari, had a vision. They successfully realized their vision, and this is all that matters. It is not their problem whether or not we like it, it's ours.
When we create bonsai, our success depends on wheter our vision will materialize. Sometimes we do it in order to win a competition, in which case we design our bonsai to please the judges. If we know what the judges want, we can deliver it to them. Sometimes we do it in order to have pure fun, in which case all bets are off. The job of the artist is to come up with new ideas and push the boundaries, our job is to critique and argue about it
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Now, what I will take from this. If I can grow nabari halph this good I will be a happy camper. The only draw back for me is their grafted foliage. Not sure if it's Ficus Microcarpa var Fukien or Crassifolia or Ilicina. I need smaller leaves and we have that with nerifolia. So I will grow nerifolia the "Thai way" and microcarpa and try to graft nerifolia. It will be a first in all accounts.
Anonymous User
Banned
I am surprised to hear this and I disagree on many levels with the thoughts put forth here. This borders on the old "it's all subjective" cop out that is usually put for by the ignorati of art, or the retardataire, the French term for latecomer or for those bringing up the rear.
Take crap in a jar, for example, some like it, some think it is art, so by the logic above, it, or anything else under the sun, is art and is acceptable, because some may like it. By the same logic, a stick in a pot is acceptable because some may like it, dead bonsai are acceptable because some may like them.....even fake bonsai are acceptable, because some people like them....still subjective?
Horse noodles!
When nebari, or any other component of a bonsai becomes distracting, unbalanced, or otherwise visually un-pleasing, it fails. Nebari have a place in bonsai, that place is not, nor ever has been the main focal point. This is not to say it can not be, but unless the entire tree tells the same story, so to speak, it fails. Nebari can indeed be over done, just as trunks, ramification, deadwood, and all other aspects of bonsai can be. So what if we can create a huge foliage mass on a literati? So what if we can create so much ramification that the main branches can no longer be seen, so what if we can fill a pot with lava flow nebari, all these things are just parts of the whole, alone, they mean nothing, too much and they cease to add to an image and instead distract from it.
Before someone rewrites my thoughts in this thread, there is nothing wrong with these super nebari, as long as they support the image as presented and do not distract visually from it. This can be done and there are good examples of this, however, they can also be overdone, and there are examples of this. Where is the line? The line is reached when the image presented fails.
As far as being artistically successful, the nebari won't decide that, it's not a race to see who can make the fattest trunk or fill a pot with pancake nebari, save that for the craftsmen.
They same people who sets the standard in any other art form. This was well discussed here.
Will
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Chris Johnston
Omono
Have I missed something here? There are a great many learned and masterful bonsai artists around the world who like these kind of nebari, as is seen in this thread itself, and in the work of many others. If they don't qualify as some who might decided it's art or not, to whom would you accede that power?
I don't know this to be a fact, but my guess is that more competent artists would appreciate the well done super nebari than would disparage it.
I personally have deep philosophical disagreements in many areas with that collectivist (and at the same time elitist) thought process. But if that's the worldview you promulgate, then to live by the sword is to die by the sword. Unless of course, you wish to crown your chosen critics. Then it all becomes a game.
Chris
Anonymous User
Banned
Ye, you did miss something. I never claimed that such nebari couldn't be successful artistically, I simply said that there is a point where they would become distractive, counterproductive, and indeed hamper the artistic presentation, a view shared by others in this thread.
My guess would be that most "competent" artists would also say that there is a point at which such nebari become counterproductive, in fact we have already heard from Walter, one of the world's top bonsai artist, stating the same.
You lost me here, sorry. Can we stick to the subject?
Will
Sent Mr. L this picture to see what's up and his response was the following.
"Why are they scaring the beautiful trunk? Well its being done in pines and maples with gental hammer blows and cuts just to cause a small damage and when it heals it swells and increases trunk size. It can also enhance the visual line of the root base."
I also asked if trunk was hollow and he said it was not.
I also asked if he used cut paste like some of the pictures showed and he personaly thought the latex gum produced by the tree was enough of a sealant but most other people use some sort of sealant.
"Why are they scaring the beautiful trunk? Well its being done in pines and maples with gental hammer blows and cuts just to cause a small damage and when it heals it swells and increases trunk size. It can also enhance the visual line of the root base."
I also asked if trunk was hollow and he said it was not.
I also asked if he used cut paste like some of the pictures showed and he personaly thought the latex gum produced by the tree was enough of a sealant but most other people use some sort of sealant.
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Attila Soos
Omono
Sorry, but the above is not worth honoring with a response. The logic that anything is art, is your assumption, not mine. Art, like anything else that has to do with imagination and creativity, has a subjective component, but that does not mean that anything is art.
Thank you for stating the obvious.
I didn't know that nebari is forbidden from being a focal point. I thought quite the opposite, a well executed nebari can be a great focal point.
Oh, it CAN be a focal point. Sorry, I thought that the previous sentence said the opposite.
By the way, I wrote a whole article on your website about the entire tree telling the same story. I wouln't be surprised if you used one of my quotes to argue against myself.
Of course it can be overdone. As I said in my post, the point where we consider overdone is decided by each of us individually, but not as a group. Sometimes we may agree, and sometimes we may disagree on what is overdone. There is no absolute point that applies to all of us.
(Please read my post more carefully next time, if you want to add something to the discussion. Making me repeat myself is very counterproductive).
Good job, finally something that makes sense. I happen to believe the same.
Good question, where is the line? Where does the image fail?
Answer: the line is decided by each of us, individually.
Translation: I do not, and cannot decide for you. You need to do that for yourself.
Congratulations, this is a great insight, and again, I happen to agree with you: bonsai is not a race, it is an expression of our creativity.
When I create a bonsai for the purpose of winning a competition, I use a set of standards required by the judges.
But conformity may not be an artist's strenght. He may like to create works that fall outside the box. It is up to us to decide whether or not we like these works.
So, you see Will, if you only read carefully what I post, and stop making outrageous claims on my behalf, you can actually come up with the same conclusion as myself. Of course, that wouldn't be much fun, would it. It is much more fun to waste other people's time - as I just wasted 30 minutes writing this, and trying to separate what I said from what I did not say. I am not sure that you really understand how annoying is when you waste someone's time just for your own personal enjoyment.
Anonymous User
Banned
But....yet you do respond?
I never claimed everything was art, I simple followed your flawed logic that because someone may like something, it is automatically validated.
Nah, you're doing a good enough job without calling you on your own words.By the way, I wrote a whole article on your website about the entire tree telling the same story. I wouln't be surprised if you used one of my quotes to argue against myself.
Then we are in agreement on this subject. Thank you.
And back to personal slights, I see....shame, for a minute I thought we were actually going to discuss the subject.
Attila, no one is forcing you to "waste" your time, please don't on my behalf. You felt inclined to comment in this thread, I responded in kind, you made your points, I debated them. This is called having a discussion, it is not a bad thing, nor does it have to turn from the subject to the person.
Will
Attila Soos
Omono
Will, you don't get it.
You did not debate one single point that I've made. You cannot disagree with anything that I said, and yet you are happy to spend another 10 pages on this subject. Don't you understand that if I have to repeat one single idea from a previous post, that's already one too much?
Clearly, when you so recklessly waste your own time in regurgitating the obvious (such as: not everything is art; a tree needs a story; a nebari that is too big, is...too much, etc.), you have no sense of how much of other's time you are wasting.
Am I turning personal?
When someone is wasting my time, I will not hesitate to point that out.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
What's wrong with you-----?! No-one's time is wasted here unless it is they that choose waste it. To accuse somone else of wasting your time is like sticking your foot in the fire and complaining of the heat. It's an argument that has no merrit and only suggest a deeper resentment not founded on the subject at hand------In other words it's personal.
