Nebari development in Siam

[Martin Sweeney]

Will,

From an artistic standpoint, I do not know the answer to your question, other than to say if the viewer doesn't like it, then it defeats the purpose for that viewer. I suppose if that was the artistic intent (ugly tree, show the grotesque, etc) then maybe not..

From a horticultural standpoint, if it endangers the well-being of the tree, then it has reached the tipping point you are asking about. Fortunately, I do not have any trees with such a nebari, although I remember reading about a Trident Maple called the "map of the world", or something to that effect, in a Bonsai Today or an International Bonsai that had health issues due to it's crazy wide nebari. For what it's worth, I didn't care for the look of that tree much.

Regards to all,
Martin

 

[Anonymous User]

Martin,

Good points, thanks.


Jason,

So are you saying there is no point that nebari can become distractive?

I couldn't help but to notice that you dropped a few names with the pictures you posted, names really don't change the visual presented, just the perception of some viewers. That being said, I only see two "dinner plates" in your examples (#1 and #5) and neither of Kimura's would qualify.

The first photo you posted is a good example, the nebari is obviously unbalanced, presents a frog leg image from the view shown. Personally, master created or not, I would say this tree had poor nebari and would wager that there is some hack back and root grafts in its future.

While I always appreciate looking at trees, again the point was not to critique, but instead to simply discuss the possibility that with "dinner plate" nebari there is a point that it becomes distractive.




Will

 

[king kong]

OK, for those that are interested in the development, I got a response from the grower who happens to be very good about trying to explain but there is a bit of translation problem so hang in there.
Mr. L, how do they develop these extroadinary root flares on these ficus is the question?
Response: I know exactly where you are coming from and will try to explain. It is very frustrating when you see all those nice root spreads and find it difficult to achieve. Like I said before...(this question and answer thing has been gowing on for two weeks)...not every fig will give you that kind of root spread. The fig (ficus) that will do that in time is used in China and is called Ficus microcarpa var Fukien and to certain extent Kimmen and Fomosana.
From prior conversations Mr. L also explained something I found new and interesting about root development. Trees were grown elevated on cones then after a period of time were flattened out, dropped to soil level and spread out. Since ficus sp. are so flexible, this is a technique that will produce nice root spread.

 

[johng]

So are you saying there is no point that nebari can become distractive?

I didn't say that at all...I just put some pictures out there for you and everyone else in order to help you have a more informed discussion.

I couldn't help but to notice that you dropped a few names with the pictures you posted, names really don't change the visual presented, just the perception of some viewers. That being said, I only see two "dinner plates" in your examples (#1 and #5) and neither of Kimura's would qualify.

Well, let see Will, was it not you in recent post that suggested it was the Art community, in this case obviously its the bonsai community, that decides what art is??? The people I included are pretty important names in the bonsai community. Although you may not, I would submit that the vast majority of bonsai artists and craftsmen out there hold these folks in high regard. I agree that the pictures are not that great but I assure you all the pics posted are of trees with extreme root bases for their species...they are just not ficus. Besides, if you are truly trying to determine at what point a large root base becomes a distractor wouldn't be important to look at bases of all sizes shapes and of all species??? Of course, like many of the discussions you encourage, this one once again completely subjective.

The first photo you posted is a good example, the nebari is obviously unbalanced, presents a frog leg image from the view shown.

Which is never a view from which the tree would be displayed now either is it?...I only took that picture from that angle to capture the extreme root base.

Personally, master created or not, I would say this tree had poor nebari and would wager that there is some hack back and root grafts in its future.

How can you critique a tree for which you have never even seen the correct front?

While I always appreciate looking at trees, again the point was not to critique, but instead to simply discuss the possibility that with "dinner plate" nebari there is a point that it becomes distractive.

You are the only one critiquing anything here...I only posted the pictures to provide some additional resources to help inform your discussion.

 

[king kong]

While viewing trees that are in advanced states and which have the "dinner plate" nebari, I have found that in many cases, the nebari over powers the tree. Yet, as in the case of the thick trunks on Sumo bonsai, sometimes it works, other times it is just too distracting.


Will[/QUOTE]
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What planet is this guy from??

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I didn't say that at all...I just put some pictures out there for you and everyone else in order to help you have a more informed discussion.

John - I am trying to figure out what has you all worked up. I think Will asked a pretty basic question and people have been responding in a reasoned manner. If you go back to his original question asking "at what point" does nebari become too dominant, you will see that he is not saying that extensive nebari is always bad. Rather, when do people pursue it as an end in itself?

I asked a similar question in my recent thread about ramification. No one will argue about the mastery of technique in that tree. However almost everyone who joined the conversation agreed that it looked to them to be too much.

So what is your opinion? How much is too much?

 

[johng]

I didn't say that at all...I just put some pictures out there for you and everyone else in order to help you have a more informed discussion.

John - I am trying to figure out what has you all worked up. I think Will asked a pretty basic question and people have been responding in a reasoned manner. If you go back to his original question asking "at what point" does nebari become too dominant, you will see that he is not saying that extensive nebari is always bad. Rather, when do people pursue it as an end in itself?

I asked a similar question in my recent thread about ramification. No one will argue about the mastery of technique in that tree. However almost everyone who joined the conversation agreed that it looked to them to be too much.

So what is your opinion? How much is too much?

Hey BN...I am not worked up at all...I just didn't need wh attributing something to me that neither I said nor implied. In light of previous discussions I purposefully chose my words carefully. I just put some pictures out there to offer some additional content to inform the discussion...nothing less...nothing more.

As far as my opinion goes it really doesn't make any difference since this matter is completely subjective. Regardless of what my opinion is, past experience has proven that my opinion only tends to incite a few folks around here and personally I don't care to be belittled for my opinions and beliefs.

 

[king kong]

Thanks for the pictures johng and I understand your opinion.

 

[king kong]

End result - a tree that anyone would be proud of I have no sense of the time required since these are tropical trees and can grow more or less year-round in Thailand. However there are quite a few trees in development - a sign that bonsai is very much alive and well in SE Asia in countries that don't get as much easy online contact with the West. I was also surprised to see that these use very traditional designs - not at all like some of the other bonsai I see coming out of SE Asia.
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Like you said BN, the end result is a tree anyone would be proud of......well most people.

 

[Anonymous User]

Anyhow....

I personally feel that there is a point where nebari can become counter productive and distract from the image being presented. Nebari can be over done, as can any other part of a bonsai, like the ramification Bnut mentioned in this thread and showed in another. Of course, we need ramification for a bonsai to be successful, but over doing it can be just as bad as not having any at all.

In most styles, Nebari is a needed component in bonsai, it adds stability to the image and enhances the illusion of an ancient tree. Some styles, such as Literati, can be without nebari and still be successful visually.

The newer trend in ficus toward "dinner plate" nebari in which the roots have fused into a solid single mass goes beyond the needed stability, balance, and illusion, creates an almost surreal image, that presents new challenges for the artist for design.

Nebari is good, too much nebari can be bad, if the visual weight distracts from the total image. In many cases of this "Super Nebari" it seems just a race to see who can create the most fused, widest, and flattest nebari, so much so that the trunk, branching, and foliage become just add on accessories. However, those that do work, work extremely well.






Will

 

[Anonymous User]

What planet is this guy from??

Planet bonsai, of course. And you?

Did you have something specific to add to the subject or were you just tossing bait around?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Well it is an interesting question that won't be answered with an absolute, that's for sure.

I can't quite tell what's going on in the first photo johng posted. Is the nebari damaged/dying? Or is there some sort of rock there? I assume there is a point where a mass of tree above the soil line will only support so much growth below the soil line. If you continue to cut back the tree, the roots will eventually die back until they are balanced with the needs of the tree. I wonder if you create too large of a "dinner plate" nebari, whether you may find yourself back at the beginning again because some of your dinner plate will die?

 

[johng]

Well it is an interesting question that won't be answered with an absolute, that's for sure.

I can't quite tell what's going on in the first photo johng posted. Is the nebari damaged/dying? Or is there some sort of rock there?

It was wet...that is all the discoloration is on the root base.

 

[king kong]

Planet bonsai, of course. And you?

Did you have something specific to add to the subject or were you just tossing bait around?

Why don't you describe the technique used to achieve this growth Mr. Heath. With all the reading and resources you have, surely you must know how this root flare is achieved?

 

[TheSteve]

And so it begins again. Oh well it was getting too quite around here anyway.

 

[Anonymous User]

Why don't you describe the technique used to achieve this growth Mr. Heath. With all the reading and resources you have, surely you must know how this root flare is achieved?

There are many ways, one of which is growth of roots on a cone shaped form, similar to the form they use for fusing seedings together for fused bonsai. Then the roots are flattened as much as possible, but close examination of some of these "dinner plate" nebari bonsai will reveal a cone shaped lower trunk, which is mostly hollow inside. Another way is simple time and good nebari management, eventually, especially with ficus, the roots will fused together, forming a flatter, lava flow look.

That being said, this thread really wasn't about how such nebari are formed, nor on who can create them, instead it was on the visual success, or lack of it on such nebari.

I hope this helps you,



Will

 

[Anonymous User]

And so it begins again. Oh well it was getting too quite around here anyway.

Nah, as long as we can keep on subject, this discussion can stay on course and maybe offer some good food for thought.

Speaking of which, what is your take on the subject?



Will

 

[king kong]

There are many ways, one of which is growth of roots on a cone shaped form, similar to the form they use for fusing seedings together for fused bonsai. Then the roots are flattened as much as possible, but close examination of some of these "dinner plate" nebari bonsai will reveal a cone shaped lower trunk, which is mostly hollow inside. Another way is simple time and good nebari management, eventually, especially with ficus, the roots will fused together, forming a flatter, lava flow look.

That being said, this thread really wasn't about how such nebari are formed, nor on who can create them, instead it was on the visual success, or lack of it on such nebari.

I hope this helps you,



Will

If you understood the root development dynamics and the techniques used to achieve this, you would have a better understanding of why these trees look as they do. Your description of a hollow trunk does not help me nor do I understand what you are talking about.
Compare the amount of roots distributed on a typical seedling as it develops on its own and matures into a tree to the abundant amount of root initiations and distributions to the trees shown above. How can you explain this root development dynamic phenomenon?

 

[Anonymous User]

You specifically asked me to describe the techniques used to achieve this growth, I answered your question Mr. Kong. I can't really explain it in simpler terms, this is how such nebari are developed, there may be other ways as well, but I listed two.

If you actually have a point, please inform us so that we can continue with the discussion, the subject of which is, do you think there is a point where such nebari becomes distractive? I think so and I gave my reasons for such beliefs.

What is your answer?



Will

 

[king kong]

OK, lets put the root cultivation to the side because it is obvious to me you have no idea how it is done. But lets understand one thing and the point I was driving at. It is a purposeful event. Someone has experimented and come up with a technique to saturate the surface of the soil with roots. Now the next question is does it look authenic? Does it look real and believable? Does a juniper wired up in knots look real? Does a hybrid hibiscus flower the size of a dinner plate look real? Does a stock car and all its alterations look real? Of course they don't look real. They all have one thing in common. They all have been modified for a purpose and to answer to a challenge. So if the Porche is too fast, and its tires too wide and there in no room for passengers, don't complain about it, just go buy Ford Focus and enjoy yourself.