Mirai in HBO documentary

[rockm]

I didn’t suggest she had an arrest record or record of violence. I was regarding Ryan as to his credibility and character, both of which there is good reason to defend.

If you’re going attempt to dismantle or discredit an argument of point of view, read and comprehend it and then accurately portray it so that your counter argument lands. That’s all I’m saying.

You were on the debate team in high school, right? I'm not 'dismantling' anything, just pointing you really have no idea WTF you're talking about and jumping to conclusions based on scant "evidence."

"there is real and tangible evidence that Chelsea is abusive"

Yet you offer none...

 

[Deleted member 47471]

You were on the debate team in high school, right? I'm not 'dismantling' anything, just pointing you really have no idea WTF you're talking about and jumping to conclusions based on scant "evidence."

"there is real and tangible evidence that Chelsea is abusive"

Yet you offer none...

I didn’t have to. Ryan did. That’s the point. You really are that stupid, aren’t you?

 

[Colorado]

Imo I find it in poor taste because they sensationalized what I felt should have been kept a private matter. Yes it was awful, but why didn’t they say Chelsea did it from the start If they were going to go public with it at all? I mention not having seen the documentary because I don’t know if they do mention it was she who did it in the movie, or still painting it as a random incident. As people have said, no one knows their personal stories, but if she built up Mirai with Ryan as a business partner I don’t see how she was entitled to none of it. That makes no sense to me at all. Oregon is not a 50/50 state as well, basically if the couple can’t agree amicably on how to split assets, whoever has the better lawyer wins. As for her mental health issues, I hope she got the help she needed.

I agree with @Hartinez , the victim here was their son.

I don’t understand where you are coming up with this story that she was screwed over in all of this.

This woman was a licensed attorney. She had her own law firm for Christ’s sake!!!

She lost her career because she allowed her law license to become inactive - not because Ryan somehow screwed her out of a career. Here is the proof from the Oregon State Bar website, which is publicly available information:



I don’t see anything “poor taste” about Ryan and HBO telling the story of what happened. People who commit crimes routinely have their conduct exposed to the world. It’s a part of accountability.

 

[Colorado]

You were on the debate team in high school, right? I'm not 'dismantling' anything, just pointing you really have no idea WTF you're talking about and jumping to conclusions based on scant "evidence."

"there is real and tangible evidence that Chelsea is abusive"

Yet you offer none...

How about the video footage of her intentionally destroying an entire house and bonsai garden?

 

[Hartinez]

I don’t understand where you are coming up with this story that she was screwed over in all of this.

This woman was a licensed attorney. She had her own law firm for Christ’s sake!!!

She lost her career because she allowed her law license to become inactive - not because Ryan somehow screwed her out of a career. Here is the proof from the Oregon State Bar website, which is publicly available information:

View attachment 521741

I don’t see anything “poor taste” about Ryan and HBO telling the story of what happened. People who commit crimes routinely have their conduct exposed to the world. It’s a part of accountability.

How about the video footage of her intentionally destroying an entire house and bonsai garden?

I hate to say it TJ, but I will. You nor any of us have any idea of what their relationship was like. Unless you think people suddenly snap for no reason what so ever. That amicable adults navigating co parenting responsibly spawns a violent raid on the others home. I personally don’t think so. But again. My opinion doesn’t mean shit, because I have no clue of how things have actually played out behind the scenes.

 

[Colorado]

I hate to say it TJ, but I will. You nor any of us have any idea of what their relationship was like. Unless you think people suddenly snap for no reason what so ever. That amicable adults navigating co parenting responsibly spawns a violent raid on the others home. I personally don’t think so. But again. My opinion doesn’t mean shit, because I have no clue of how things have actually played out behind the scenes.

With all due respect, my friend, I have to disagree. I DO believe that people commit crimes and other atrocities against completely innocent victims.

Now, I do agree with you that none of us know the whole story. What you’re suggesting is totally possible. However, it is also possible that she did this without provocation.

My speculation is that she did this because she lost custody of her son. That has nothing to do with Ryan being “abusive” - that was a decision made by an Oregon court. That decision was very, very likely to have been based upon the evidence and upon Oregon law.

Like I said, this is complete and utter speculation. However, to me, it seems like the most likely explanation.

 

[rockm]

How about the video footage of her intentionally destroying an entire house and bonsai garden?

Again, you are being shown selected portions of the events for dramatic effect. Of course the person committed those heinous acts, but no one here has any further insight into what wasn't shown, or any other context about those events. Assuming criminality, intent and effects that are not shown in the relatively brief (and disturbing) snips of what happened is short-sighted and based on a film made to maximize dramatic impact--one rule of movies--directors include ONLY what they want to include--what's on the screen is intentional and has a reason for being there to advance the story line. The film wasn't intended to be a dispassionate legal record of the event, but a device to advance a plot or theme in the director's mind.

NO ONE here (unless they actually know Ryan or his wife) has any way to determine the character, mindset of anyone involved. Saying the film is somehow "evidence" of any of that is silly. You don't and can't know that. There are

 

[Hartinez]

With all due respect, my friend, I have to disagree. I DO believe that people commit crimes and other atrocities against completely innocent victims.

Now, I do agree with you that none of us know the whole story. What you’re suggesting is totally possible. However, it is also possible that she did this without provocation.

My speculation is that she did this because she lost custody of her son. That has nothing to do with Ryan being “abusive” - that was a decision made by an Oregon court. That decision was very, very likely to have been based upon the evidence and upon Oregon law.

Like I said, this is complete and utter speculation. However, to me, it seems like the most likely explanation.

I appreciate your thoughts TJ. Honest question for you though. Do you feel that your opinion is skewed and or biased to believing that Ryan is an innocent victim in this case, due to his high profile and beloved stature in the American Bonsai community? Or for example, do you think your opinion would be different if we had years and years of incredibly positive video from Chelsea doing work and teaching in her career that gives us a basis to form an opinion on her character? I don’t know that there’s a right answer to either of these just a few interesting thoughts more than anything else.

Edit. I really like Ryan, Neil and the Bonsai community and business that he’s built. Just throwing that out there because I’m trying as hard as I can to not skew one way, or the other based on my own convictions.

 

[Maiden69]

I hate to say it TJ, but I will. You nor any of us have any idea of what their relationship was like. Unless you think people suddenly snap for no reason what so ever. That amicable adults navigating co parenting responsibly spawns a violent raid on the others home. I personally don’t think so. But again. My opinion doesn’t mean shit, because I have no clue of how things have actually played out behind the scenes.

Here is my little experience with court actions. I recently adopted my daughter, and I have been her father since she was 18 months old. When I requested the adoption the court sent a social worker that basically interrogated me, my wife and my daughter, separately, then in front of the court the judge asked my daughter again if she was ok with me being her father. Do you think that Ryan would have custody of their kid if there was any hint of abuse from him?

As far as the issue at hand, I feel sorry for both, she clearly needs to do a lot of healing. Sucks that the kiddo had to be exposed to this crap.

As far as the bolded statement, I have seen this happen a lot in my 28 years in the service. People that you would think were exemplary citizens either doing something stupid as she did, or taking someone or their own life. Not everybody has the ability to be resilient. Those that don't, do tend to snap for no reason.

 

[Hartinez]

Here is my little experience with court actions. I recently adopted my daughter, and I have been her father since she was 18 months old. When I requested the adoption the court sent a social worker that basically interrogated me, my wife and my daughter, separately, then in front of the court the judge asked my daughter again if she was ok with me being her father. Do you think that Ryan would have custody of their kid if there was any hint of abuse from him?

As far as the issue at hand, I feel sorry for both, she clearly needs to do a lot of healing. Sucks that the kiddo had to be exposed to this crap.

As far as the bolded statement, I have seen this happen a lot in my 28 years in the service. People that you would think were exemplary citizens either doing something stupid as she did, or taking someone or their own life. Not everybody has the ability to be resilient. Those that don't, do tend to snap for no reason.

I totally understand all of this. My wife and I have dealt with the court system for many years in regards to my daughter and her mom. I won’t bore you with the details, but it was not a fun process. With that said, my daughter lives with me full-time at 14 years old.

In regards to people, just snapping, I’ve also seen it more times than I’d like to say. But typically when I see it, it is not as calculated and intentional as her episode seemed to be. Did she just snap? Maybe. Was she just provoked from years of abuse that we don’t know about? Maybe. I think that’s the biggest point that I’m trying to get to, and clearly not successfully. Lol none of us know what led up to this. So it seems unfair to use this documentary as a means to decide what is or isn’t fact.

What I do know is that when the footage came on my jaw dropped and I felt a massive range of emotions. From anger, to sadness, to empathy, to wonderment, etc. etc.

 

[Sansokuu]

I don’t understand where you are coming up with this story that she was screwed over in all of this.

This woman was a licensed attorney. She had her own law firm for Christ’s sake!!!

She lost her career because she allowed her law license to become inactive - not because Ryan somehow screwed her out of a career. Here is the proof from the Oregon State Bar website, which is publicly available information:

View attachment 521741

I don’t see anything “poor taste” about Ryan and HBO telling the story of what happened. People who commit crimes routinely have their conduct exposed to the world. It’s a part of accountability.

I will clarify what I meant about giving up her career - she put being a lawyer on hold to move to Oregon and build up the Mirai business with Ryan. Please don’t misinterpret or assume what I meant to say, my wording is such because of these following sources which mention the both of them, Ryan and Chelsea, making Mirai what it is today, together.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/54c9359de4b0f2976a2eaf2e/t/55eb39e0e4b038f69371fbd4/1441479136708/conifer_quarterly_24-28.pdf

https://www.postindependent.com/news/growing-u-s-bonsai-movement-has-roots-in-glenwood/

Is Portland The Epicenter Of An American Bonsai Movement?

Portland bonsai master Ryan Neil has partnered with cutting-edge artists and designers to make bonsai cool for a new generation. Exhibit A: His architectural show at the Portland Japanese Garden.

www.opb.org

 

[chicago1980]

I'm glad to see Bonsai out there on that large streaming network.

I found the documentary hard to follow with all the storylines and struggled to connect the stories to a meaningful end or conclusion for myself.

 

[n8]

I'm glad to see Bonsai out there on that large streaming network.

I found the documentary hard to follow with all the storylines and struggled to connect the stories to a meaningful end or conclusion for myself.

Agreed. The "Entanglements" bit was no lie. It was a messy doc and would have been better presented as an episodic series.

The Furuzawa family's re-connection with the black pine story was moving. America's WWII concentration camps and the appropriation of assets is shameful. There's been a bit of a renewed focus on this here in the Central Valley, but it's a purposefully overlooked part of our history because so many now-wealthy farmers benefited enormously from the forced removal of Japanese Americans.

 

[Deleted member 47471]

I appreciate your thoughts TJ. Honest question for you though. Do you feel that your opinion is skewed and or biased to believing that Ryan is an innocent victim in this case, due to his high profile and beloved stature in the American Bonsai community? Or for example, do you think your opinion would be different if we had years and years of incredibly positive video from Chelsea doing work and teaching in her career that gives us a basis to form an opinion on her character? I don’t know that there’s a right answer to either of these just a few interesting thoughts more than anything else.

Edit. I really like Ryan, Neil and the Bonsai community and business that he’s built. Just throwing that out there because I’m trying as hard as I can to not skew one way, or the other based on my own convictions.

In fairness, high profile and popularity are not the basis and foundation for believing Ryan is not abusive. Overall character and absence of abuse, lack of credible/legal/believable corroboration of the claims, lack of records of abuse etc. are the contributing factors as to *why* the claims about him are not enough to conclude that he is an abuser.

Appeals to popularity or status are types of logical fallacies to consider and caution against, but they’re not being used to defend Ryan. They would not hold ground in his defense.

The direct answer to your question as I observe is CO has not made those types of appeals to defend Ryan (I don’t presume to speak for him per se, but I do not see him making appeals to popularity in the argument/discussion).

Ryan’s overall character and observable pattern and history of behavior (lack of abuse records not withstanding), coupled with evidence against Chelsea, are reasons to believe she (they) are projecting and they further not justified in destroying property, her child’s belongings, and their overall relationship. Sure, it’s ‘none of our business,’ personally, but is it enough to believe he is abusive? No. Is it enough to believe she was? Currently, yes, to a reasonable extent.

The goal of remaining completely unbiased and non-skewed is not attainable (at least as of yet) based on what happened in reality as far as objective evidence and facts goes. It’s not paint her as a monster (one’s actions do that) but deal seriously with claims and reason our way to them or away from them.

 

[John P.]

In case any of you don’t have HBO Max but DO have AT&T wireless, they include it as a perk for customers.

 

[coh]

One thing to remember...Ryan was abused for what, 6 or so years in Japan? Read through that New Yorker article where he says Kimura "effed me up bad." He admitted hitting other apprentices when he was the senior apprentice over there. Then when he came back he drove away his earliest Mirai apprentices ("he treated his first apprentices as harshly as Kimura had treated him.") He admits to being in therapy to deal with it.

So it's not out of the realm of possibility to imagine that some of that behavior cropped up in his personal life, especially if/when things got stressful.

That doesn't excuse what she did, of course. But we really don't know what went on behind the scenes in the years leading up to that.

I haven't seen the movie yet but just based on everything that has been said, I find myself wondering why he thought it would be a good idea to put that stuff out in public like that.

 

[John P.]

Doing a little Googling after watching the doc shows that a law firm in CO brought Ryan’s ex on board earlier this year. Apparently she worked there while in law school or just thereafter, before Mirai started. Anyhow, searching the firm’s site now doesn’t show her there. Left to wonder if the firm knew about what had happened in OR when they extended the offer of employment, or since. In any case, it would be interesting if she still has a law license after that behavior in either OR or CO.

That said, the whole situation is very sad. I feel for the kid, especially.

 

[Hartinez]

phew . This is exhausting. I think I’ll go back to just posting trees.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I liked the documentary mostly. The "Entanglements" of Mirai, Weyerhauser (including reforestation storyline), and the Furukawa family set a foundation for the "Entanglement" topic. I felt that there could have been a little more clarity on Beth Moon's connection to this storyline by more emphasis on her photography of the same trees which ryan neil had started the movie working his bonsai trees at.

The storylines of Irene Taylor and Carloyn Finney, though compelling, did not clearly tie them into this main "entanglement" and for that, I would have left them out in favor of more explanation/focus on other items related to, for instance, the Weyerhauser's philanthropy, Moon's photography of trees which also inspired people such as Niel.... and a better explanation of the Mirai vandalism.

Not having intimate knowledge of Ryan Niel like some do, I had no idea that the vandalism was connected to a previous marriage though in hindsight I see some implied comments now that make sense. Nonethless, I cant stop thinking, that it would be easy for a woman to exhibit deep jealousy when in her eyes her husband is more sexually attracted to the curves of a tree named Baker than to his wife. Actually knowing that it was her that vandalized the house paired with a cut of him fondling Baker's crevices sets up good documentary fodder. This is not a comment on her sanity/potential abusive elements/or any of that... just my perspective as a media critic.

 

[Deleted member 47471]

phew . This is exhausting. I think I’ll go back to just posting trees.

Agreed.