Masterpieces and their flaws

[milehigh_7]

Speaking of Walter, you will all be glad to know that he is on the mend. Love him or hate him, he is an amazing man and a visionary. His words from a FB post, "I am stable.now. three major operations in a week. Three bypasses, three stents. It was highly critical. Return ticket to hell. I will be back."

 

[rockm]

God speed his recovery. Make no mistake, my comments were not a slight. I have long admired his work and his capabilities.

 

[october]

I wish him well. Hope he can get back doing what he loves very soon.

Rob

 

[fourteener]

i like the DO IT mentality in art. do your thing without following your peers. don't let expectations get in the way either. just because something is a trend doesn't make it a rule.

I appreciate your artistic mindset. Even your name represents either an inside joke or a mind that thinks outside of the box. Feeling free has more value to you than a sense of rigidity. I would simply say that there is a lot of freedom inside the rules. All teams play different sports differently. It's the same rules for every team, but the freedom of expression is grand.

The thing about the Walter quote is that there are people who have it in them so deeply that I think he genuinely doesn't think about the rules. But beauty and instinct are at the core of who he is so deeply that he doesn't have to think about things the way others of us might need to.

Like a Michael Jordan jumpshot or a Wayne Gretsky slapshot, it's so natural to them, they weren't thinking about the rules for a good shot. This is what really separates great ones from others trying to get a little better than we were last year. It's also why some of the great ones have a hard time teaching others. What they do is so instinctive they can't imagine that you don't "just know."

I hope you don't feel like your in a fight for freedom. Dare greatly, take risks, see where it leads.

 

[Vance Wood]

I guess the obvious question is, what is a flaw and who gets to decide its a flaw?

In my book a flaw is something that stands out whose ugliness overshadows, and dominates the rest of the tree despite how well refined, manicured, ramified, and nebaried (word?) the rest of the tree may be.

 

[Vance Wood]

I appreciate your artistic mindset. Even your name represents either an inside joke or a mind that thinks outside of the box. Feeling free has more value to you than a sense of rigidity. I would simply say that there is a lot of freedom inside the rules. All teams play different sports differently. It's the same rules for every team, but the freedom of expression is grand.

The thing about the Walter quote is that there are people who have it in them so deeply that I think he genuinely doesn't think about the rules. But beauty and instinct are at the core of who he is so deeply that he doesn't have to think about things the way others of us might need to.

Like a Michael Jordan jumpshot or a Wayne Gretsky slapshot, it's so natural to them, they weren't thinking about the rules for a good shot. This is what really separates great ones from others trying to get a little better than we were last year. It's also why some of the great ones have a hard time teaching others. What they do is so instinctive they can't imagine that you don't "just know."

I hope you don't feel like your in a fight for freedom. Dare greatly, take risks, see where it leads.

I have to agree with this on every point. In my life I have run into two individuals like this. The first was my father who was for lack of a better term a quasi-mathimatical genius. He used to take pride when going to the market with my mother and I of being able to keep a running total in his mind of everything my mother threw into the shopping cart. On check out he already knew exactly how much everything was going to cost and had figured out the total cost plus the tax. I was not blessed with this ability and when I was young he was always frustrated with me that I had trouble with math. Getting his help was a nightmare of monumental proportions that I dreaded as much as a dental appointment.

The other was a University professor who was so good at what he taught he couldn't teach his subject.

 

[october]

i like the DO IT mentality in art. do your thing without following your peers. don't let expectations get in the way either. just because something is a trend doesn't make it a rule.

Hello catfish..This can be good advice. Sometimes it depends on the situation.

I really think, as mentioned before, you might want to focus your interest on penjing. Besides your reply about studying with Ryan Neil..The vast majority of your comments and even trees that you post, really lean towards the art of penjing. I mean, less pad like trees, less symmetry, very abstract triangles, if any, more ornate pots etc.. I need to mention here that this advice of pursuing penjing, is in no way a fall back, but an equal. Although penjing may appear more natural, make no mistake that some of the designs can become an extremely long process. I have heard that penjing sometimes rely of the clip and grow methods to sometimes build trunk.. You can only imagine how long that takes, like 10-15 years plus.

I get the feeling that with the passion you have for trees, you might be in a somewhat constant conflictive state if you adhere to bonsai only. I wish I had some more information for you in regards to a teacher of the art, but I do not. There are good books about it out there though.

I think I would compare your involvement with bonsai to some one who likes or dislikes seafood..lol..Ironically enough with your screen name. Someone can say they don't like seafood, yet, they order seafood. When asked why, they say, well, it's a seafood restaurant. Just because it is a seafood restaurant, does not mean there are not other options, perhaps steak.

Rob

 

[Poink88]

Speaking of Walter, you will all be glad to know that he is on the mend. Love him or hate him, he is an amazing man and a visionary. His words from a FB post, "I am stable.now. three major operations in a week. Three bypasses, three stents. It was highly critical. Return ticket to hell. I will be back."

He also posted about it here on March 9th...see post #9
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthr...Annual-Convention-quot-Three-Ring-Circus-quot

 

[Vance Wood]

Speaking of Walter, you will all be glad to know that he is on the mend. Love him or hate him, he is an amazing man and a visionary. His words from a FB post, "I am stable.now. three major operations in a week. Three bypasses, three stents. It was highly critical. Return ticket to hell. I will be back."

Thanks for the information. How did I miss the initial report of his illness?

 

[Dan W.]

Like a Michael Jordan jumpshot or a Wayne Gretsky slapshot, it's so natural to them, they weren't thinking about the rules for a good shot. This is what really separates great ones from others trying to get a little better than we were last year. It's also why some of the great ones have a hard time teaching others. What they do is so instinctive they can't imagine that you don't "just know."QUOTE]

Fortuneer, I agree, there are certainly people like this.-- I've asked some musicians questions about their playing and they have no idea how to respond because it's all by instinct.

BUT.. . I fully believe that one can get there by hard work and practice. If one practices with enough passion and focus, they eventually will get to the point where the activity no longer takes thought or effort. Your mind is then free to explore the next steps in your learning. This continues to build and I believe that is where one eventually, truly, reaches breakthrough and freedom in an art form.

Obviously some learn faster than others, but everyone has to learn the game at the beginning. I'm only guesing here, but I believe even Wayne Gretsky and Michael Jordan practiced their shots over and over again to the point where it became a natural movement. Thier passion and love for the game is why they excelled. Throw in the natural talent and possibly a good teacher, then you have truly amazing artists and athletes.

 

[johng]

Like a Michael Jordan jumpshot or a Wayne Gretsky slapshot, it's so natural to them, they weren't thinking about the rules for a good shot. This is what really separates great ones from others trying to get a little better than we were last year. It's also why some of the great ones have a hard time teaching others. What they do is so instinctive they can't imagine that you don't "just know."

Its called talent and you either haven't or you don't...there is typically very little grey area...sure you can learn technique but if you don't have the vision to "see" good bonsai in the material all the technique in the world will not help.

Sports will only ever make a marginal analogy to bonsai...the best sports related analogy I see is this...I can know every detail of the game of basketball but there is a zero correlation between that knowledge and my ability to actually play the game at a high level. Its unfortunate that the same goes with bonsai...all the techniques, passion or knowledge in the world will never give you the vision necessary to develop really good bonsai....

I am quite sure that many of us know people, and are people, in the hobby that fit this notion to a tee....I would guess 95% or more of us fit this profile...as much as I would like to think differently, I know I do!

John

 

[Anthony]

Talent - selecting 10 or so mature trees of the same variety and then sitting down to draw what you see. Drawing for mass and drawing for branching / trunk attitude.
Then relaxing and let the imagination create a new tree, as a drawing.

Get a seed or cutting and begin.
With horticultural experience perhaps 5 to 10 years later a good pleasing design emerges.

Any tree that can be cut down to a stump and restarted will become a design [ even if it is grafted together ]
There are no bad bonsai, only poor designs ----------------> time taken to re-grow.
Good Morning.
Anthony

* Whitened wood / Driftwood, needs about 50 years of maturity to be resistant to nature or you will be epoxying and you need to watch the wood touching the soil.

 

[my nellie]

I have been reading each and every post with great interest. I cannot contribute anything else than the following which I think is of high importance (out of a philosophical aspect I mean) :

... ... Grasping the concept will eventually be reflected in one's character. Humble trees, humble minds.
I consider myself having reached the 'G' in "Grasping"..

Having seen some of Dorothy's trees on the internet and having read some (very little) things about her, I would say that she definitely has got the virtue of modesty.
Artists apart from being an "artist" should be persons who knows their boundaries as being just humans, I believe.

And may I wish a quick and complete recovery to Mr. W. Pall so that we can continue admiring his way of "breaking the rules".

 

[rockm]

The flaw with the whole "innate ability" in bonsai thing is that that talent has to come in three parts--horticulture, art and age (time).

Bonsai is not a physical sport, nor a typical talent, like musical ability. It's not measured in spectacular single acts--the show-stopping demo tree that dies in a year isn't a show of talent as much as a one-time magic show.

It's measured in small things done over years, at the right time, in the right way to a living, changing subject. Those small acts accumulate in a single piece of transitional art. The "final" if you can call it that--product can also more than a single person's effort.

 

[johng]

The flaw with the whole "innate ability" in bonsai thing is that that talent has to come in three parts--horticulture, art and age (time).

Bonsai is not a physical sport, nor a typical talent, like musical ability. It's not measured in spectacular single acts--the show-stopping demo tree that dies in a year isn't a show of talent as much as a one-time magic show.

It's measured in small things done over years, at the right time, in the right way to a living, changing subject. Those small acts accumulate in a single piece of transitional art. The "final" if you can call it that--product can also more than a single person's effort.

I just reread your post and edited mine because I can't disagree with anything you said. My earlier post was referring specifically to artistic talent...I certainly agree, that ultimately, it takes more than just artistic talent to create and maintain quality bonsai...as you pointed out. But without it, achieving pleasing trees is a hit or miss prospect at best.

 

[Vance Wood]

I just reread your post and edited mine because I can't disagree with anything you said. My earlier post was referring specifically to artistic talent...I certainly agree, that ultimately, it takes more than just artistic talent to create and maintain quality bonsai...as you pointed out. But without it, achieving pleasing trees is a hit or miss prospect at best.

Almost anyone can learn to grow a tree in a pot, transplant it, root prune it, prune it, put wire on it, bend the branches, pinch the buds and repeat the process over and over again for years keeping the tree healthy and prosperous. These are the kind of things that take only diligence and dedication.

To take this a step further people can look at pictures in books, follow an analysis of traditional branch placement and learn a kind of paint by the numbers method of making a tree in a pot into a bonsai. However; it does take a degree of artistic sensitivity to take the above two disciplines, pull them together and make a bonsai that is more than the sum of it's parts. To parrot a discussion we had several years ago it is the difference between an art and a craft.

It is like learning how to play the piano. Almost anyone can learn how to play the piano. It just take learning the notation, hitting the right keys and understanding rhythm and timing.

 

[rockm]

"Almost anyone can learn to grow a tree in a pot, transplant it, root prune it, prune it, put wire on it, bend the branches, pinch the buds and repeat the process over and over again for years keeping the tree healthy and prosperous."

I don't think that's really true. Understanding all this requires a bit of talent in itself. Like many crafts, bonsai is built on work, done well and an understanding of WHY the work is done.

Doing all these things is the hard work that bonsai art is based on. You can be a wizard at "seeing" a design in a shrub, but root prune it too hard at the wrong time and you're done.

The everyday "nuts and bolts" of bonsai can, indeed, be well beyond some people. Many fail at these things, some over time, some immediately. Some keep at it despite their failures and some keep at it despite failures and keep failing.

 

[Poink88]

Almost anyone can learn to grow a tree in a pot, transplant it, root prune it, prune it, put wire on it, bend the branches, pinch the buds and repeat the process over and over again for years keeping the tree healthy and prosperous. These are the kind of things that take only diligence and dedication.

To take this a step further people can look at pictures in books, follow an analysis of traditional branch placement and learn a kind of paint by the numbers method of making a tree in a pot into a bonsai. However; it does take a degree of artistic sensitivity to take the above two disciplines, pull them together and make a bonsai that is more than the sum of it's parts. To parrot a discussion we had several years ago it is the difference between an art and a craft.

It is like learning how to play the piano. Almost anyone can learn how to play the piano. It just take learning the notation, hitting the right keys and understanding rhythm and timing.

That is the key, distinguishing gifted/talented vs skilled people...and likely the one we are all been alluding to but did not really touch. You can only take skill to a certain level but cannot move beyond that unless you have the special gift/talent. These talented people also learn much faster than most of us sometimes even w/o any effort.

 

[my nellie]

... ...These talented people also learn much faster than most of us sometimes even w/o any effort.

Hello, Dario! I would say that perhaps this is not about "learning faster" but this is more about conceiving. They have the inner ability to readily "conceive" what others need some time in order to "learn"

 

[catfish chapstick]

A lot of good points have been made. There is definitely a great many things to consider in bonsai.

I do see myself leaning a bit towards penjing if they must be classified, but I also don't feel the need to classify.

There is a science to bonsai. Horticulture is science. Science also lends itself to design. As a graphic designer I know that (in graphic design) the differences between a good design and a great design don't typically lie on the science side of it. True style in any field of design (be it graphic, fashion, music, or whatever) often takes time to develop but that development starts with a fresh outlook and a propensity for originality (and serious attention to detail). The best designers are true artists, and the best artists are truly designers.

I come to bonsai through art and my love of nature and plants. I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything, just offering my perspective.