Real Trees Have a Lot of Flaws

Gabler said:
I came here to say the same thing, but you beat me to it. It's sort of like your classic Renaissance sculpture. I doubt most of those people had those ideal bodies. Synthetic steroids hadn't been invented yet. Or I guess for that matter, we could call body builders and high fashion models the human equivalent of bonsai. Not realistic, but pretty to look at.
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In those times.. the only people with muscles/bodies like that was the “Hoi Polloi”...

People who were “well” off... ate often.. and didn’t have to work..

“Peasant Muscle” was ACTUALLY considered “unappealing” in “pop culture” of that day...

So the people POSING for sculptures.... probably needed the money!

🤓
“..I’ve done some things I’m not proud of..” 🤣🤣
 
HorseloverFat said:
In those times.. the only people with muscles/bodies like that was the “Hoi Polloi”...

People who were “well” off... ate often.. and didn’t have to work..

“Peasant Muscle” was ACTUALLY considered “unappealing” in “pop culture” of that day...

So the people POSING for sculptures.... probably needed the money!

🤓
“..I’ve done some things I’m not proud of..” 🤣🤣
Click to expand...

Another good point about the subjectivity of beauty. I would say both yes and no. Yes, a high body fat percentage was a mark of good health in leaner times, since it meant that you ate well, but it's also important to remember that the sculptures continued the traditions of the ancient Greeks, who prized physical fitness and moderation in the consumption of food and drink. Further, the Roman Empire was characterized by the same excesses in consumption as modern Americans, and it was the Romans who spread and thereby cemented Greek culture throughout Western civilization. Then in the Dark Age, things got leaner again, and that influenced beauty standards well into the Renaissance, even as the great artists of the time emulated the ancients' style and sense of beauty.

But if anything, that just strengthens the analogy to bonsai. There is a long history of aesthetic value, and it doesn't always match the latest trends in physical beauty.
 
Leo in N E Illinois said:
Wait, don't give up on this thread yet, I'll try to help by throwing in the magic words.

Wabi Sabi

Now discus the imperfect trees in nature. Capture the perfection and the flaws.

Discuss
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I still don't fully understand the concept of wabi sabi. It's usually explained as "perfectly imperfect" in the context of the beauty of struggle and austerity as seen through the lens of the Buddhist tradition. But as a Westerner, that doesn't really tell me much. I don't have the full cultural context for that to make sense. Like the terms bunjin or literati, I don't think wabi sabi has a clear definition that you can express in a few English words. It's more of an attitude than a concept. Or maybe it's as much an attitude as a concept? The closest thing we have to Buddhism is Western Stoicism as described by the Ancient Greeks and Romans, but that's still pretty different. The latter is rooted in formal Aristotelian logic, and the former is more about the oneness of everything, and those two traditions in logic directly conflict with each other. The Westerner would say, "A thing is either A or not A. It cannot be both." A Buddhist would likely find the formulation absurd.
 
Gabler said:
I still don't fully understand the concept of wabi sabi. It's usually explained as "perfectly imperfect" in the context of the beauty of struggle and austerity as seen through the lens of the Buddhist tradition. But as a Westerner, that doesn't really tell me much. I don't have the full cultural context for that to make sense. Like the terms bunjin or literati, I don't think wabi sabi has a clear definition that you can express in a few English words. It's more of an attitude than a concept. Or maybe it's as much an attitude as a concept? The closest thing we have to Buddhism is Western Stoicism as described by the Ancient Greeks and Romans, but that's still pretty different. The latter is rooted in formal Aristotelian logic, and the former is more about the oneness of everything, and those two traditions in logic directly conflict with each other. The Westerner would say, "A thing is either A or not A. It cannot be both." A Buddhist would likely find the formulation absurd.
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I was thoroughly, conversationally “bitchslapped” by my philosophy instructor by trying to use Edmund Burkes ideas of “Sublime and Beauty” when the class was discussing wabi sabi.

🤣🤣
 
Gabler said:
I still don't fully understand the concept of wabi sabi. It's usually explained as "perfectly imperfect" in the context of the beauty of struggle and austerity as seen through the lens of the Buddhist tradition. But as a Westerner, that doesn't really tell me much. I don't have the full cultural context for that to make sense. Like the terms bunjin or literati, I don't think wabi sabi has a clear definition that you can express in a few English words. It's more of an attitude than a concept. Or maybe it's as much an attitude as a concept? The closest thing we have to Buddhism is Western Stoicism as described by the Ancient Greeks and Romans, but that's still pretty different. The latter is rooted in formal Aristotelian logic, and the former is more about the oneness of everything, and those two traditions in logic directly conflict with each other. The Westerner would say, "A thing is either A or not A. It cannot be both." A Buddhist would likely find the formulation absurd.
Click to expand...
I know a girl that I wouldn't touch with a stick because her ugliness might be contagious. Still, she gets paid 40K a day if she works and she's been on the cover of vogue a couple times.
And in all fairness, she has that 'something' that makes her different than all the rest of the mediocre European ladies. If you'd photoshop any part of her face onto another lady, it would improve their face. But all parts combined as a whole face on this single girl, it just doesn't work in real life. On photos, magazines, catwalks, whatever, it's magical..

Pick up a rock, any rock. Look at it for long enough and you'll find something that sticks out. Something that's good about it. If you focus on it long enough, even a brick can be a pretty brick. I think that's the idea of wabi sabi. It's not just the view, it's the emotional and mental investment that you make to look for something, which actually makes it better.
The mona lisa for example is what I'd consider an average southern European lady with an average expression. Yet for some reason people are captivated by her. Is it because they kept looking until they found something, or is it because she actually has something that feels familiar to all of us? It might just be the fact that it's so average, so common.

I don't have any answers either.
 
My mom has always told me that the things which I hate in other people are the things I hate in myself, but which I am too afraid to acknowledge. Being the rational person I am, I no longer claim to hate anything in anyone!

When we see flaws in art, I wonder if we are not also saying something about our own creations.
 
Gabler said:
I still don't fully understand the concept of wabi sabi. It's usually explained as "perfectly imperfect" in the context of the beauty of struggle and austerity as seen through the lens of the Buddhist tradition. But as a Westerner, that doesn't really tell me much. I don't have the full cultural context for that to make sense. Like the terms bunjin or literati, I don't think wabi sabi has a clear definition that you can express in a few English words. It's more of an attitude than a concept. Or maybe it's as much an attitude as a concept? The closest thing we have to Buddhism is Western Stoicism as described by the Ancient Greeks and Romans, but that's still pretty different. The latter is rooted in formal Aristotelian logic, and the former is more about the oneness of everything, and those two traditions in logic directly conflict with each other. The Westerner would say, "A thing is either A or not A. It cannot be both." A Buddhist would likely find the formulation absurd.
Click to expand...
For me I just feel it. Many of us get it and don’t even know we get it. It’s like some of us who try a BC bonsai. We don’t want a perfectly grown cypress for it looks too much like a Christmas tree. We try to make a perfect flat top BC, which actually is an embodiment of brokenness, of struggles to overcome adversity, of imperfections.
 
Orion_metalhead said:
My mom has always told me that the things which I hate in other people are the things I hate in myself, but which I am too afraid to acknowledge. Being the rational person I am, I no longer claim to hate anything in anyone!

When we see flaws in art, I wonder if we are not also saying something about our own creations.
Click to expand...
This is one of the worlds great truths. I only recognized that about ten or so years ago and I am nearly 72. I still backslide but I recognize this to be a fundamental flaw in humankind.
Thank you so very much for posting it here. Your mother is a very evolved soul.
 
penumbra said:
I know there are large natural trees that are bonsai-ish. Like I said, as an arborist and horticulturist I have studied them a long time.
It seems to me that a lot of folks are missing the point of my thread. Don't take it so seriously. It was stated with a light heart. All of us can see the examples I am speaking of every day. It is a good practice to see these abominations and evaluate them.
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One of Harry Hirao's favorite trees was a California juniper he collected from the Mojave... and he never touched. It was a somewhat surrealistic design because it had only a single live branch, and that branch looked like a small powderpuff tree sitting on a rolling landscape of deadwood. He loved it because he called it a "natural bonsai" even though it broke pretty much every rule in the book. I didn't particularly like it... but I kept telling myself the fault was my own, and not the tree's.

I guess my goal with trees is to make them perfectly imperfect. In other words, I work to get them to embody the design I have decided to pursue... but that design is never one of perfection.
 
The more I hear about wabi sabi, the less I understand its appeal. In fact, the less I understand. Is my being hopeless wabi sabi? I'm pretty imperfect...
 
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