Anonymous User
Banned
Excellent stock!
Nursery Stock Masterpieces
- Thread starter Anonymous User
- Start date
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Not wishing to be snooty either but with all respect that was not my original question which had to do with why these trees were not posted on their site?
rlist
Shohin
Hey Vance,
I am in the process of a complete make over to the site and I am going to add the large killer trees to the site. You wouldn't believe how many emails I have gotten about the small pine in my avatar that is on the website. I could have sold this tree 1000x and have been offered $2500 by a big name. Figured if it is that good I will keep it and continue to develop it.
Thanks for posting the links to a few of my personal trees Rich.
Enjoy, Jason
Bonsaiforlife
Mame
This was exactly my impression when I went there. I have never seen stock like this anywhere else, ever. There is just no comparison. I know I would rather spend my money on collected trees than nursery stock.
Some of the trees are huge and would have to be crated up to ship them. I needed Jason to help me carry my tree to my pickup for it was quite heavy, maybe 100lbs.
I am glad that most of the trees are not on the web for I saw a ton of trees that hopefully make it into my hands over the next few months. But when you have a place where lots of people come and buy in person it is hard to keep that stock up to date with what is on the net. You have to keep the "for sale on the net trees" separate from the "for sale in person trees". People might get upset if they buy a tree on the net and get a message that it is sold already.
ianb
Shohin
Indeed I was Jason, you just cannot appreciate the scale of these trees from pictures (even the small ones) the sheer age of the bark and deadwood add a presence that just cannot be duplicated. Unfortunately due to technical issues not too many photos came out but you can check out the few that did here 4MAAT under the nursery report section.
Anonymous User
Banned
For those of you who are interested in the original topic of this thread, the nursery stock gallery has been launched at AoB.
http://www.artofbonsai.org/galleries/nursery_stock.php
Enjoy, or not
Will
http://www.artofbonsai.org/galleries/nursery_stock.php
Enjoy, or not
Will
rlist
Shohin
Thank you. I did enjoy it, as I always enjoy seeing stock from the Walter's, the Robert's, the Budi's and the Bill V's of the world. Their skills and works are very impressive.
I also stand by my words of yesterday.
Rick Moquin
Omono
I was looking forward with much anticipation, like many to the culmination of this thread, and I must admit that I am a little disappointed. I don't believe it was the quality of the trees submitted that left me with a feeling of emptiness, but rather the misinterpretation of the title to this thread: "Nursery Stock Masterpieces".
This response is not meant as an insult towards the fabulous work submitted by the artists. On the contrary this response should be taken in light and solely on the merit of the subject title, which IMHO is a gross misuse of the word "Masterpieces" as discussed in another thread.
It is indeed unfortunate that a ridiculous debate wrt material used in the pursuit of our passion, leaves the impression that some great work from renowned artists may well have been tainted in the process.
I believe and support that respectable bonsai (even world class) can be created from good quality stock, regardless of the source, this was discussed ad infinitum in the earlier days of BNut. I believe that perhaps this heated exchange led to the misuse of a word in describing great works of art. To some, any great work is a masterpiece to others, great work. When the golden rule is applied as intended, mathematically very few masterpieces exist indeed. It is the application of such principle that ensures greatness without the tainted bias of human nature.
Anonymous User
Banned
Rick,
Thank you for sharing your personal definition of the word masterpiece with us, I hope some day that becomes an universally accepted definition, for now though, it is not.
As I mentioned a few times, people will pick apart this gallery based on their own definition of what the word masterpiece means....myself, I'm going to go enjoy the trees submitted, they are inspiring.
HAve a nice morning and a great day,
Will
Thank you for sharing your personal definition of the word masterpiece with us, I hope some day that becomes an universally accepted definition, for now though, it is not.
As I mentioned a few times, people will pick apart this gallery based on their own definition of what the word masterpiece means....myself, I'm going to go enjoy the trees submitted, they are inspiring.
HAve a nice morning and a great day,
Will
Bill S
Masterpiece
Great gallery Will, it shows that under a skillfull hand/s with time ordinary stock can become serious bonsai. Nice to see a good spread of "talant" names with trees that we can all manage to obtain, within personal talant ranges of course.
Now the question begs is, how much is time worth to a serious bonsai enthusiast, or does it matter. My take on that is that it is a personal choice, for whatever reason you might have, beit "I want the whole creative process in my control", availability of funds, " I want it sooner than later", or the challange.
Looking more forward to the spring nursery crawl.
Now the question begs is, how much is time worth to a serious bonsai enthusiast, or does it matter. My take on that is that it is a personal choice, for whatever reason you might have, beit "I want the whole creative process in my control", availability of funds, " I want it sooner than later", or the challange.
Looking more forward to the spring nursery crawl.
Anonymous User
Banned
Thanks Bill.
I thought that the subject of time would come up as it is a common perception that nursery material takes far longer to develop into bonsai than stock from other sources.
This may be true in many cases, but as with all such "definitive statements" it is certainly not true in all cases.
First we must admit that all collected material can not be designed into a presentable bonsai in a short time frame and that even all pre-bonsai can not be.
Compared to seedlings or seeds, all of the sources above are faster, but none win every race.
Again, as with quality, it is not the purchase location or price that determines the time from stock to respectable bonsai, it is the stock coupled with the talent of the artist.
Looking at the AoB gallery we can see an excellent Neea buxifolia bonsai by Budi Sulistyo, certainly a masterpiece by my standards (although I am quite sure many will jump in to disagree), brought to this present state in only four years. Or Michael Pollock's Scots Pine, which would grace any bonsai bench with its remarkable potential alone, five years out of the nursery.
Of course we could also show nursery stock bonsai that are 30 years out of the nursery and also collected stock bonsai that are 100 + years out of the wilderness, yet none of it matters.
All that matters is that now when we hear someone tell a beginner that quality bonsai can not be created from nursery stock, that such material is a waste of time, or that it would take a lifetime to develop a bonsai from such material....we can just link them to some examples that disproves the falsehood and move on.
http://www.artofbonsai.org/galleries/nursery_stock.php
Moving on,
Will
I thought that the subject of time would come up as it is a common perception that nursery material takes far longer to develop into bonsai than stock from other sources.
This may be true in many cases, but as with all such "definitive statements" it is certainly not true in all cases.
First we must admit that all collected material can not be designed into a presentable bonsai in a short time frame and that even all pre-bonsai can not be.
Compared to seedlings or seeds, all of the sources above are faster, but none win every race.
Again, as with quality, it is not the purchase location or price that determines the time from stock to respectable bonsai, it is the stock coupled with the talent of the artist.
Looking at the AoB gallery we can see an excellent Neea buxifolia bonsai by Budi Sulistyo, certainly a masterpiece by my standards (although I am quite sure many will jump in to disagree), brought to this present state in only four years. Or Michael Pollock's Scots Pine, which would grace any bonsai bench with its remarkable potential alone, five years out of the nursery.
Of course we could also show nursery stock bonsai that are 30 years out of the nursery and also collected stock bonsai that are 100 + years out of the wilderness, yet none of it matters.
All that matters is that now when we hear someone tell a beginner that quality bonsai can not be created from nursery stock, that such material is a waste of time, or that it would take a lifetime to develop a bonsai from such material....we can just link them to some examples that disproves the falsehood and move on.
http://www.artofbonsai.org/galleries/nursery_stock.php
Moving on,
Will
Rick Moquin
Omono
I believe the word is misused, and there is nothing wrong with holding the standards high, because in the end we all benefit from high standards whether we believe in them or not.
Art is extremely subjective I will take 2 award winning trees as examples: Walter's renowned RMJ and his Maple. Both are great trees but I see only one that could transcend into the Masterpiece category, and that is his Maple. Why, because he has masterfully produced a tree that mimics what can be readily found in nature. He did not create a bonsai nor a great bonsai, he created a great looking tree. The tree has some flaws but then again so do trees in nature.
A tree needs to move you, evoke passion and if I was a bird, I would gladly pitch my tent in that tree, whilst paying Walter the appropriate rent.
Nothing can be further from the truth as far as I am concerned. I had great expectations based on the discussion that ensued from the on set of this thread. It started off great, and then the quality got diluted. Not saying that I would not accept any of these great trees on my bench, just let's maintain the standard of what a masterpiece is. It's not quantity that counts, it's quality, and that is why I mentioned the golden rule. Whether we like it or not, when using an equal footed benchmark, "sub-standard" creations are weened from selection vice lowering the standard of truely great works. If not, then what is one to aspire to.
You promised us the goods but failed to deliver. I apologize in advance to those who may feel insulted by my comments. The term "masterpiece" IMO should not be used as loosely as "hey nice set of wheels", but reserved to such trees that have achieved "that" grandeur in the talented hands of great artists.
I admire the work of these artist and wish to some day aspire to that level of talent and artistry. If I only make it halfway, I would be a happy man. As discussed in previous threads there are many facets in bonsai, competition is not one I wish to embark upon, it takes the fun out of it. I was a competitive archer, although not related to bonsai I do know what I am talking about... (wrt taking the fun out of simple pleasures in life).
Hey WIll,
Thanks for the gallery, your efforts are appreciated.
While I think these are all good trees from nursery stock I don't see any of them as typical nursery material. I see them as the very rare and lucky find at a nursery! Trust me, most of these were not typical material.
Nice gallery though, I enjoyed it and you proved your point, that good bonsai can come from nursery material.....
Jason
Thanks for the gallery, your efforts are appreciated.
While I think these are all good trees from nursery stock I don't see any of them as typical nursery material. I see them as the very rare and lucky find at a nursery! Trust me, most of these were not typical material.
Nice gallery though, I enjoyed it and you proved your point, that good bonsai can come from nursery material.....
Jason
Attila Soos
Omono
Not too bad for nursery material.
Nice trees.
Nice trees.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Great Yamadori are equally as rare. You just don't go out in the woods, pick and choose from miles of beautiful trees waiting for the master's hand, I've been there and walked the miles to find nothing. I have seen tons of Yamadori brought to shows, conventions, and seminars in this part of the country, some from out West; none have been worth the cost and effort to purchase as far as I am concerned. Believe me; if I was confronted with a Yamadori that floated my boat I would obtain it, but I certainly will not put down hard earned money on a second rate tree just because it is Yamadori. Many people do and I have yet to see any of them turned into even acceptable bonsai.
Chris Johnston
Omono
And yet the only person we have ever heard make that argument was your quoting of that straw man. No one in these debates for lo, these many months, has said anything remotely resembling what, if said, would be an obvious and blatant falsehood. No one has argued this.
Somehow I doubt there will be any moving on.
Last edited:
Rick Moquin
Omono
Sorry Chris but it has indeed been said. However I am not about to sift through hundredths of post, and dissect them to come up with a trivial piece of data. I have far better things to do with my time.
Vance, I am sorry that you have yet to see a yamdori that blows your skirt up, that is pretty unfourtunante in my opinion. You really are or have missed out on some really good trees. Maybe it was in some of the smaller shows where the trees are judged in the same room as pickles and flowers that Joe Bob brought his little pine collected on the back 40? I am not sure. Or maybe your standards are just so high that only the smaller needles of mugos get you going? Again, not sure.
I will agree that not all yamadori are created equally. But there are HUGE differneces between yamadori and nursery material.
1)Nursery Material is grown for landscape and not trained for any of the features for bonsai.
2)Nursery material is grown as fast as possible to get it into a 3gallon container to charge more. Very young, immature bark and trunks.
3) Finding nursery material that has the attributes to be a killer bonsai is like finding a needle in a haystack, very rough. I am using a guess here, but lets say out of 100k nursey trees you might find 1000 that could be passed as bonsai, 100 that will be good bonsai and 1 that will be very very good.
4)Nursery Material is great for learning and sometimes keeping when you are lucky enough to find the diamond in the ruff. I have some of those that are keepers....
Yamadori~ This is assuming you know where the good trees are to begin with! Oh, and have an eye for knowing what is good stock and seeing the tree inside the tree 10yrs in the future.
1) Most trees are older than we are and could be 1000+ yrs old. Very good bark and deadwood that the best can't even duplicate.
2) trunk movement and bark thickness never found on nursery material.
3) Powerful naturally dwarfed trees that have been formed by mother natures harsh climates. These climates give the tree all of the most desired attributes for quality bonsai stock.
4) Can collect a tree and have it ready to show in less time.
5) Worth much more and more desirable as bonsai than any other form of aquiring stock.
The down fall to collecting is not everyone has the right conditions for good trees in thier part of the country. Not everyone has the skills or eye to collect and ensure they live. And not everyone is built for collecting. You have to be strong mentally and physically, in the best shape of your life, able to go up to 12 miles with 200+ pounds on your back at up to 10,000ft elevation with little to no food or water for 10+ hours. This is one of the tougher days, but they do happen. Not all of us are collecting within site of the truck.
I have never said that nursery material was completly useless, infact I don't know who did? But I did say that if you want the best possible trees in the US it is NOT through nursery stock. That is a fact that I am sure everyone can agree on.
Jason
Last edited:
Hi Ed,
It was a pleasure to have you come out. Thanks for posting these good words here to kinda validate my claims
See Ya soon!
Hey Ian,
Thanks for coming out, it was awesome to have another "Left Coaster" come visit and see for themselves that I am not blowing smoke! It was a pleasure giving you the tour and having a cold one with ya afterwards. Glad to hear your trip went well!
Thanks again, Jason
Similar threads
