Nursery Stock Masterpieces

[JasonG]

By the way, if you have a bonsai that was created from tradition nursery or garden center stock that you would like considered for the gallery, please email it to me.

There is no deadline, the gallery is dynamic and will be updated as new bonsai are submitted.


Thanks,


Will

Hey Will,

So I will take it that it is now not a "Nursery Stock Masterpiece" gallery but rather a gallery for "really good bonsai from nursery material"? I say this since you are asking here for pictures when so far in this thread there has yet to be a masterpiece from nursery stock produced.

It will be interesting to see what your gallery looks like.... since so far anywhere online we have yet to see a good example..... I know they are out there BUT will be very rare to find as compared to say...... something collected

Looking forward to your gallery......

Jason

 

[Anonymous User]

Must everything be so argumentative?

So I will take it that it is now not a "Nursery Stock Masterpiece" gallery but rather a gallery for "really good bonsai from nursery material"? I say this since you are asking here for pictures when so far in this thread there has yet to be a masterpiece from nursery stock produced.

1) The gallery will be posted at AoB, our high standards assure quality bonsai, I'm sure that even the harshest critic will find at one masterpiece to like.

2) The gallery is dynamic, if someone wishes to email a pic for it, they can. Please notice the words "that you would like considered" in my request.

3) Would you, based on your experience, please inform me why you would not call the bonsai in post #2 and #3 in this thread masterpieces and please tell us how you would improve them so they could be called such? failing in that, could you please define what exactly a masterpiece is?

4) The point was and is, that quality bonsai can well be created from such stock. I could post thousands of pieces of crap created from collected material, bonsai nursery material, and even nursery stock...that in no way reflects upon the simple truth, great bonsai comes from a combination of great stock and talent, without one, the other is not enough. Great stock comes from wherever you find it, talent, I'm afraid, is not so easy.

It will be interesting to see what your gallery looks like.... since so far anywhere on-line we have yet to see a good example..... I know they are out there BUT will be very rare to find as compared to say...... something collected

Let's put this to the test, shall we?

Could you post 10 masterpieces created from collected stock? Without help? What would your qualifications be for selection? Oh, you must also get permission from the artist to post them with written assurance that they were created from collected material

Be forewarned that no matter what you post, some will automatically claim they are not masterpieces, thus you will never reach your goal.

I look forward to posting the gallery at AoB.



Will

 

[Rick Moquin]

It simply amazes me to see the cultural differences of the West Coast in both our countries, in comparison with the East.

... as stated regardless of the origin of the displayed tree, as art is extremely subjective, some will be masterpieces and some will be trees in a pot.

Walter's famous RMJ as an example, "woody" fails to do anything for me, yet to many it is a masterpiece.

 

[JasonG]

Must everything be so argumentative?


1) The gallery will be posted at AoB, our high standards assure quality bonsai, I'm sure that even the harshest critic will find at one masterpiece to like.

2) The gallery is dynamic, if someone wishes to email a pic for it, they can. Please notice the words "that you would like considered" in my request.

3) Would you, based on your experience, please inform me why you would not call the bonsai in post #2 and #3 in this thread masterpieces and please tell us how you would improve them so they could be called such? failing in that, could you please define what exactly a masterpiece is?

4) The point was and is, that quality bonsai can well be created from such stock. I could post thousands of pieces of crap created from collected material, bonsai nursery material, and even nursery stock...that in no way reflects upon the simple truth, great bonsai comes from a combination of great stock and talent, without one, the other is not enough. Great stock comes from wherever you find it, talent, I'm afraid, is not so easy.


Let's put this to the test, shall we?

Could you post 10 masterpieces created from collected stock? Without help? What would your qualifications be for selection? Oh, you must also get permission from the artist to post them with written assurance that they were created from collected material

Be forewarned that no matter what you post, some will automatically claim they are not masterpieces, thus you will never reach your goal.

I look forward to posting the gallery at AoB.



Will

Hey WIll,

I wasn't trying to be argumentative... really I wasn't!

But without me doing a ton of work I will start with the obvious that everyone can relate too.

Ginko Awards...... All yamadori, some field grown material maybe??
Kokofu Ten...... Mostly yamadori, some Field grown material
Taiken Ten.... Mostly yamadori, some field grown material
Too many other major shows to count with the same results....

Then take the best masters in the world, anywhere in the world they have amazing collections with the best trees in the world that are several hundered years old...... nursery material??

The best trees in the world come from Japan and Europe, can we see a common denominator here?

I am not going to seek permission to post pictures, etc.... I don't need to because we all know what is above is true. Will this debate ever end?

Thanks, Jason

 

[Vance Wood]

Hey WIll,

I wasn't trying to be argumentative... really I wasn't!

But without me doing a ton of work I will start with the obvious that everyone can relate too.

Ginko Awards...... All yamadori, some field grown material maybe??
Kokofu Ten...... Mostly yamadori, some Field grown material
Taiken Ten.... Mostly yamadori, some field grown material
Too many other major shows to count with the same results....

Then take the best masters in the world, anywhere in the world they have amazing collections with the best trees in the world that are several hundered years old...... nursery material??

The best trees in the world come from Japan and Europe, can we see a common denominator here?

I am not going to seek permission to post pictures, etc.... I don't need to because we all know what is above is true. Will this debate ever end?

Thanks, Jason

Will this debate ever end? In a word? Probably NO!

Let us assume that you are correct and if one were to follow your premis to its logical conclusion; masterpiece bonsai cannot be made from anything but field grown and Yamadori trees, then why don't we all just give up bonsai, close down all the forums and find something else to do? Honestly I have seen a lot of second rate bonsai made from Yamadori and field grown material---some of it on this forum and others like it. I don't think it is the material's fault it is the growers that do not have the vision of what to do with it.

PS, I am not answering for Will, I am answering for myself.

 

[chansen]

I think this discussion topic has been interesting and, to a degree, educational. I don't think the debate can really end because I think both sides are right to a degree.

Great bonsai can be created from nursery material. There is evidence to support the conclusion.

Great bonsai can be created from collected/pre-bonsai material. Again there is evidence to support the conclusion.

I see the crux of the issue hanging on the probabilities of each.

There does seem to be a greater likely-hood of creating truely masterful art from a collected specimen, than something found at an ordinary nursery. When I look at the (admittedly limited) number of masters and trees I can find access to, most come from collected/pre-bonsai material.

I don't think it's impossible to create a (dare I say it) masterpiece from regular nursery material. However, I think the likely-hood is much smaller.

Finally, I think (and not that I think anyone hasn't) that we should recognize the knowledge that has been gained from the likes of Vance Wood. He's really created a great knowledge base for work on Mugo pines, for instance. The bonsai world would have possibly gone without this had he not spent so much time and effort on nursery material (great work Vance, I really appreciate your contributions).

 

[Jay Wilson]

Chansen,
I think you have taken page after page of discussion and reduced it to the basic reality of it all.

I have to agree with you.

Thanks!

 

[Vance Wood]

I think this discussion topic has been interesting and, to a degree, educational. I don't think the debate can really end because I think both sides are right to a degree.

Great bonsai can be created from nursery material. There is evidence to support the conclusion.

Great bonsai can be created from collected/pre-bonsai material. Again there is evidence to support the conclusion.

I see the crux of the issue hanging on the probabilities of each.

There does seem to be a greater likely-hood of creating truely masterful art from a collected specimen, than something found at an ordinary nursery. When I look at the (admittedly limited) number of masters and trees I can find access to, most come from collected/pre-bonsai material.

I don't think it's impossible to create a (dare I say it) masterpiece from regular nursery material. However, I think the likely-hood is much smaller.

Finally, I think (and not that I think anyone hasn't) that we should recognize the knowledge that has been gained from the likes of Vance Wood. He's really created a great knowledge base for work on Mugo pines, for instance. The bonsai world would have possibly gone without this had he not spent so much time and effort on nursery material (great work Vance, I really appreciate your contributions).

Thank you very much for the kind words.

 

[JasonG]

Will this debate ever end? In a word? Probably NO!

Yeah, this topic is almost getting up there with discussing politics and religon!

Let us assume that you are correct and if one were to follow your premis to its logical conclusion; masterpiece bonsai cannot be made from anything but field grown and Yamadori trees, then why don't we all just give up bonsai, close down all the forums and find something else to do? .

Wow Vance, lets have the "over reaction of the year" award made out in your name!! I have never said that you can not make a masterpiece from nursery material, infact I was the one who brought up Walters juniper many posts ago. The likleyhood of 95% of all the poeple in bonsai owning or creating a true masterpiece is very slim. That is just the reality of it. Now lets really look at what I have been saying....pay attention here...... The very best trees in the world are not from nursery material. The best and most famous bonsai in the world are collected. The best masters, the best shows and the best trees are made up of collected material. This is just a very, very simple fact! I see no reason to debate this unless ofcourse someone is just blind to the real world of bonsai as a whole.

Honestly I have seen a lot of second rate bonsai made from Yamadori and field grown material---some of it on this forum and others like it. I don't think it is the material's fault it is the growers that do not have the vision of what to do with it.

PS, I am not answering for Will, I am answering for myself.

Sure, no one ever said that just because it is collected makes it automatically a world class tree..... I would agree that there has been some mediocre field grown and collected trees on the web. But there has been 10millionX's more crap nursery material posted as well. The ol' 1 gallon stick in pot wasn't coined from collected trees in 1 gallons was it?

All that was said from the very begining of this topic, going back to Peters interview, is that you have a much better chance at having the best possible bonsai with collected material. I know that an average small ponderosa will have a better trunk, better movement, better bark then ANY nursery pine you can find. It is just the facts, time and harsh conditions make it that way.

I respect you for fighting the good nursery fight and for what you have done with mugos, but surely you have to realize that the best trees in the world are collected? Never in a million years is a home depot or small ma and pa nursery tree going to win Ginko, Kokofu, etc.... no matter who works on it.

Oh, please if any of the collected trees I have posted are some of the mediocre ones please let me know. I will not be offended by what you have to say about my trees. Same goes with anything I post, call me to the carpet.... I would love it.

Enjoy!, Jason

 

[Vance Wood]

Yeah, this topic is almost getting up there with discussing politics and religon!




Wow Vance, lets have the "over reaction of the year" award made out in your name!! I have never said that you can not make a masterpiece from nursery material, infact I was the one who brought up Walters juniper many posts ago. The likleyhood of 95% of all the poeple in bonsai owning or creating a true masterpiece is very slim. That is just the reality of it. Now lets really look at what I have been saying....pay attention here...... The very best trees in the world are not from nursery material. The best and most famous bonsai in the world are collected. The best masters, the best shows and the best trees are made up of collected material. This is just a very, very simple fact! I see no reason to debate this unless ofcourse someone is just blind to the real world of bonsai as a whole.




Sure, no one ever said that just because it is collected makes it automatically a world class tree..... I would agree that there has been some mediocre field grown and collected trees on the web. But there has been 10millionX's more crap nursery material posted as well. The ol' 1 gallon stick in pot wasn't coined from collected trees in 1 gallons was it?

All that was said from the very begining of this topic, going back to Peters interview, is that you have a much better chance at having the best possible bonsai with collected material. I know that an average small ponderosa will have a better trunk, better movement, better bark then ANY nursery pine you can find. It is just the facts, time and harsh conditions make it that way.

I respect you for fighting the good nursery fight and for what you have done with mugos, but surely you have to realize that the best trees in the world are collected? Never in a million years is a home depot or small ma and pa nursery tree going to win Ginko, Kokofu, etc.... no matter who works on it.

Oh, please if any of the collected trees I have posted are some of the mediocre ones please let me know. I will not be offended by what you have to say about my trees. Same goes with anything I post, call me to the carpet.... I would love it.

Enjoy!, Jason

I have a personal policy, I never pillory any-one's trees, it's like telling someone that their kids resemble the going away view of a Red-Bottomed Baboon. If asked I will critique.

 

[JasonG]

I have a personal policy, I never pillory any-one's trees, it's like telling someone that their kids resemble the going away view of a Red-Bottomed Baboon. If asked I will critique.

Now that is funny! I respect your standpoint!

Thanks! Jason

 

[rlist]

Never in a million years is a home depot or small ma and pa nursery tree going to win Ginko, Kokofu, etc.... no matter who works on it.

We should not deal in absolutes, but in percentages. I would agree with a statement such as: Approximately 99.0% of the time the finest trees (subjectively masterpieces) are created through superior horticultural and artistic skills from yamadori or material that was cultivated in a bonsai nursery from a seedling for the ultimate purpose of being trained as a bonsai.

If anyone makes a statement: Through superior horticultural and artistic skills, a masterpiece can be created from a tree that was rescued (haha) from a box store or ma and pa nursery that was originally intended for landscape purposes.

I would reply: Yes. Followed by: Please show me, because the percentages are against you and I want to be inspired and heap praise.

I gave up arguing about religion and politics a long time ago (except with my sister, as I like to frustrate her, but that is a different story for a different day). I am now adding bonsai material source to the list.

That's all I have to say about that, other than I still eagerly await the AOB gallery...

 

[Anonymous User]

Ginko Awards...... All yamadori, some field grown material maybe??
Kokofu Ten...... Mostly yamadori, some Field grown material
Taiken Ten.... Mostly yamadori, some field grown material
Too many other major shows to count with the same results....

Would you be so kind as to share your sources for this information?

Even if the above is true, it in no way refutes the fact that quality bonsai can and have been created from nursery stock.

Then take the best masters in the world, anywhere in the world they have amazing collections with the best trees in the world that are several hundered years old...... nursery material??

Material from all sources, in fact in the upcoming nursery stock gallery at AoB, there are more than five world class artists that have trees in it.

The fact is simply, these artists don't give a crap where the stock came from, they only care about the quality, a point I have been trying in vain to make for the last two weeks. It doesn't matter in the least where the stock comes from, all that matters is the quality of the stock. Why is this so difficult to understand?

The best trees in the world come from Japan and Europe, can we see a common denominator here?

This is argumentative. But assuming this is true, Japan has literally thousands of world class bonsai that were grown from cuttings or seeds and yes, even non-bonsai stock. They depleted most of the collectible stock decades ago, driving the prices of such sky high and paving the way for the worlds most successful bonsai nursery business's. My guess would be that 90% of all the quality bonsai being created now in Japan comes from bonsai nursery stock, not collected stock.

At the rate Europe is collecting now, unless something is done, we will see a repeat of Japan's history.

I am not going to seek permission to post pictures, etc.... I don't need to because we all know what is above is true.

I think I have shown just the opposite.



I was really hoping to see your response to my question, "Would you, based on your experience, please inform me why you would not call the bonsai in post #2 and #3 in this thread masterpieces and please tell us how you would improve them so they could be called such? failing in that, could you please define what exactly a masterpiece is?"


All in the quest for knowledge, no offense meant and none taken.



Will

 

[Anonymous User]

The very best trees in the world are not from nursery material. The best and most famous bonsai in the world are collected. The best masters, the best shows and the best trees are made up of collected material[/U]. This is just a very, very simple fact! I see no reason to debate this unless ofcourse someone is just blind to the real world of bonsai as a whole.

I understand this, do you understand that this debate has its roots with those who tell beginners they should start out with expensive pre-bonsai or collected material and to stay away from nursery stock? That they preach that nursery stock is a waste of time and that a quality bonsai can not be created from such material. They have suggested that quality bonsai can only be found in the wild or in bonsai nurseries and that quality bonsai can not be created from stock that is inexpensive. Some have went as far to dictate that unless stock is purchased from a bonsai nursery or is collected, it is no good and that unless it costs a few hundred bucks or more it is crap.

This debate is against the idea above, to show that the location or the price stock is not important at all, only the quality of the stock is. I have never claimed that nursery stock is superior to other stock, only that it should not be dismissed.

Paying attention? This is the real world, no artist worth his salt gives a damn where stock originated from or what it cost, only that it is good stock.


Will

 

[JasonG]

I understand this, do you understand that this debate has its roots with those who tell beginners they should start out with expensive pre-bonsai or collected material and to stay away from nursery stock? That they preach that nursery stock is a waste of time and that a quality bonsai can not be created from such material. They have suggested that quality bonsai can only be found in the wild or in bonsai nurseries and that quality bonsai can not be created from stock that is inexpensive. Some have went as far to dictate that unless stock is purchased from a bonsai nursery or is collected, it is no good and that unless it costs a few hundred bucks or more it is crap.

This debate is against the idea above, to show that the location or the price stock is not important at all, only the quality of the stock is. I have never claimed that nursery stock is superior to other stock, only that it should not be dismissed.

Paying attention? This is the real world, no artist worth his salt gives a damn where stock originated from or what it cost, only that it is good stock.


Will

Hi Will,

I never said that nursery material was worthless. At the begining I said it was good to learn on, and get your hands dirty. Heck, I have nursery material in my collection but not from the typical box nursery. Infact I have a very nice scots pine and a few really good mugos from nursery material that I bought just a few months ago Even one of the scots I sold to the Spokane club for a Walter Pall demo. But finding trees like this is very very rare and I live in the nursery capital of America.
But I can go 2 miles from my house and be right in the middle of a few hundered of the best collected trees in all of America. So with that in mind I hope one can see my stand on collected trees. They just have qualities that you can not find in nursery or field grown material.
I know quite a few "Masters" and they all have a preference as to what they like to work on the best. I will just leave it at that, no need to add salt to the wound lol

I agree that nursery stock should not be dismissed......and it has its place in bonsai for sure. But for MY collection to be the best it can possibly be nursery material plays a very small part in that.

Thanks, Jason

 

[Mark]

2 miles from your house are the" best collected trees in America" ? Are ypp-022,009,025,002 or 024 examples you would use to support this claim? Just because they are collected, does not make them great. I have seen some great collected trees from the west coast. A few of the Mt. Hemlocks are really special. I do not care much for Ponderosa, most have needles that are too long and sparse. Have you seen the trees on the East Coast? Eastern White Cedar, Larch, Balsam Fir, Pitch Pine,Potentilla and Spruces? I guess it is personal taste, but I prefer our trees. Maybe someone from europe told you that you had the best trees in America, or maybe you just believe it. Either way, you might be over stating it a little.

Mark

 

[JasonG]

2 miles from your house are the" best collected trees in America" ? Are ypp-022,009,025,002 or 024 examples you would use to support this claim? Just because they are collected, does not make them great. I have seen some great collected trees from the west coast. A few of the Mt. Hemlocks are really special. I do not care much for Ponderosa, most have needles that are too long and sparse. Have you seen the trees on the East Coast? Eastern White Cedar, Larch, Balsam Fir, Pitch Pine,Potentilla and Spruces? I guess it is personal taste, but I prefer our trees. Maybe someone from europe told you that you had the best trees in America, or maybe you just believe it. Either way, you might be over stating it a little.

Mark

Hi Mark.

Thanks for pointing that out.... No, what we have on the web is no where near the best trees. These on the web are the small trees that are average to good in quality but are easy to ship. That is the key.... easy to ship! Those you mentioned are also a very good price for a gnarly little collected tree. The other trees that I refer to as SOME (should have said that earlier) of the best collected tree in America have never been pictured and only seen by the people that visit us in person. There have been a small handful of fellow BonsaiNut members who have visited in the past month from the East Coast and locally that have been absolutely blown away with what they have seen. They laughed at what was on the website after getting here and not bieng able to comprehend the sheer quality and quantity of collected and field grown trees. With collected trees for example, one can not study every tree in a day. I welcome all to come visit and I personally give a 2 to 4 hour tour of the facilities that seems to be enjoyed by everyone who visits.

As for my statement about the best collected trees in America..... It wasn't only a few Europeans that travel the US extensively and know better than you and I what is out there, but also the handful of American masters that have made thier way here to buy trees that they just can't find anywhere else. So, when I said that I was echoing the words of others and I shouldn't have done that. Infact I shouldn't be involved with this conversation at all.....but I went against my best judgement and jumped in, lol!!

I have seen some of the trees from the East Coast and you are right, some of them are very good. Every species that you mention are found here as well. Instead of Eastern Cedar we have western and firs, we have a dozen varieties that grow here and are excellent for bonsai. I ship Sub Alpine Fir and Spruse to the East Coast a few times a year. Infact once the temps warm a bit there are some spruce and fir headed your direction.

I didn't want this to turn into a war of words with anyone or make me or anyone else look bad. The few emails I have recieved in the past 24 hrs tells me that we are all better then this and that I should just stop replying to all of this.....

FWIW, Jason

 

[Anonymous User]

The few emails you have received in the past 24 hrs tells that stated that we are all better then this and that you should just stop replying to all of this.....sounds like attempts to stop intelligent discussion to me.

There is no heated discussion here, no insults, just an intelligent exchange of ideas, which is exactly what forums are supposed to be for. (believe it our not, they are not for insulting, inciting, posting insulting pictures, name calling, character assassination, and other such idiocy)

God forbid if we examine our personal feelings on any subject involving bonsai. I wonder what everybody is so afraid of?

Jason, it doesn't matter I or anyone else agrees with you, the value in such a discussion is throwing these beliefs out there and see if they hold up under scrutiny.

To paraphrase a great man, I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

The problem arises when people are unable or unwilling to support their claims in an intelligent, non-insulting manner that is conclusive to education.


Will

 

[Vance Wood]

Hi Mark.

Thanks for pointing that out.... No, what we have on the web is no where near the best trees. These on the web are the small trees that are average to good in quality but are easy to ship. That is the key.... easy to ship! Those you mentioned are also a very good price for a gnarly little collected tree. The other trees that I refer to as SOME (should have said that earlier) of the best collected tree in America have never been pictured and only seen by the people that visit us in person. There have been a small handful of fellow BonsaiNut members who have visited in the past month from the East Coast and locally that have been absolutely blown away with what they have seen. They laughed at what was on the website after getting here and not bieng able to comprehend the sheer quality and quantity of collected and field grown trees. With collected trees for example, one can not study every tree in a day. I welcome all to come visit and I personally give a 2 to 4 hour tour of the facilities that seems to be enjoyed by everyone who visits.

As for my statement about the best collected trees in America..... It wasn't only a few Europeans that travel the US extensively and know better than you and I what is out there, but also the handful of American masters that have made thier way here to buy trees that they just can't find anywhere else. So, when I said that I was echoing the words of others and I shouldn't have done that. Infact I shouldn't be involved with this conversation at all.....but I went against my best judgement and jumped in, lol!!

I have seen some of the trees from the East Coast and you are right, some of them are very good. Every species that you mention are found here as well. Instead of Eastern Cedar we have western and firs, we have a dozen varieties that grow here and are excellent for bonsai. I ship Sub Alpine Fir and Spruse to the East Coast a few times a year. Infact once the temps warm a bit there are some spruce and fir headed your direction.

I didn't want this to turn into a war of words with anyone or make me or anyone else look bad. The few emails I have recieved in the past 24 hrs tells me that we are all better then this and that I should just stop replying to all of this.....

FWIW, Jason

I am curious; why don't you show the "Good Stuff" too? I understand the problem with shipping but still, would it not be better to show what you really have than to describe that you have it? Just curious.

 

[rlist]

I am curious; why don't you show the "Good Stuff" too? I understand the problem with shipping but still, would it not be better to show what you really have than to describe that you have it? Just curious.

Jason's working and I am stuck in an airport. So, I'll throw a little out (not out of snotty-ness, just to show that they have been shown here-and-there). Here are a few Jason has posted on the Nut. Search IBC for Portland or Oregon and you will get a bunch of trees and workshops in Walter's travelogues. All of the trees below are less than 3 years out of the mountains and less than 2 years of development.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=519
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333