Nursery Stock Masterpieces

[Graydon]

great artistic work: an exceptionally good piece of creative work, e.g. a book, movie, or performance

Thanks for the thread Will. I look forward to seeing all of the work people post made from nursery material.

Not meaning to be argumentative but TO ME a masterpiece must not only meet your criteria from the definition but must also touch or speak to me unlike anything else I have encountered. If we look at the above quoted definition the key word is GREAT. Sorry (Webster's or Encarta) but exceptionally good should never be used when discussing masterpieces. The bar is set at GREAT. Fall short and you are in the good category. Good is good but it's not a masterpiece. It's also terribly subjective to discuss what we think are worthy of being called bonsai masterpieces. Opinions come in to play and all opinions are equal. There is no benchmark for great as it is subjective.

Non bonsai example - ask people about film masterpieces and you may get all sorts of answers. Some people may not be able to address the question as all they care to watch are good films. One of my favorite films of all time is Brazil directed by Terry Gilliam. I would wager that many of you could not finish the film if you were to watch it. Based on my interest in visual arts and art direction that film is (in my opinion) one of the true masterpieces of modern film. Go figure.

I did find one tree in all of them posted to date that I would classify a masterpiece. It's photo is below. Great tree however it does make me think a bit as it was nursery material from the 1950's. Over 50 years as a bonsai I believe the true beauty and maturity has only emerged after the 50 years as a bonsai. I would love to see photos of this tree at 10 year anniversaries in cultivation.

Thanks again for the thread. I look forward to seeing more trees in this category posted.

 

[Graydon]

I agree with this definition. Not the examples of the definition

I do not agree with the definition Tom (but I am not taking exception with you). How can we discuss masterpiece trees using great and good? There are great trees and there are good trees. I may be off a bit in my head but great and good are far apart...

 

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the link, Ian.


Well, I can see that any postings of any trees here will be simply a judge fest as everyone lines up to give their professional critiques and opinions.

Let me do this instead of posting the photographs that have been emailed to me...I will compile and format a gallery of exceptional bonsai that have been created from nursery stock. Once it is completed I will post a link to it.

I think in that way a great gallery of trees created from nursery stock can be created for viewing by all without a vast number of opinions breaking it up before it is even started. I think such a gallery would not only be educational, but indeed inspirational as well.

After it is done, the discussion can continue, if anyone cares to.



Will

 

[Rick Moquin]

What's up Will? Don't like a little controversy?

The title of your own post states Nursery Stock "Masterpieces". I personally believe it to be more important to show great pieces rather than dilute these great pieces with sheer numbers.

It's not the quantity it's the quality that counts. You started off on the right track and then went on to dilute a good thread, we are not side tracking here. You have fallen short of the mark and when we raised these points of/for discussion, you decide you want to take your toys and go home, what gives?

You can't have your cake and eat it too!

 

[ianb]

Thanks for the link, Ian.


Well, I can see that any postings of any trees here will be simply a judge fest as everyone lines up to give their professional critiques and opinions.

Let me do this instead of posting the photographs that have been emailed to me...I will compile and format a gallery of exceptional bonsai that have been created from nursery stock. Once it is completed I will post a link to it.

I think in that way a great gallery of trees created from nursery stock can be created for viewing by all without a vast number of opinions breaking it up before it is even started. I think such a gallery would not only be educational, but indeed inspirational as well.

After it is done, the discussion can continue, if anyone cares to.



Will

That would be great Will.

If I may make a suggestion, how about adding some kind of rating system so that each visitor can rate the tree (say from poor to masterpiece if you will) then display the number of votes in each category. This might avoid some of the back and forth opinion slinging that we get, sometimes it is best to agree to disagree rather than going to extremes to prove a point.

Cheers
Ian

 

[Asus101]

Of all my Melaleuca bonsais, this Melaleuca Incana Nana is the only one which flowers. Not bad for a few $ nursery stock

I am sure we can all agree that the bonsai above are exceptional, many created by world-reknowned masters of the art.

I don't think this one was created by anyone special, nor could it be classed as a masterpiece. It hides trunk and all of the branch structuce. The most desirable show piece of a paper bark mel. is the bark, not the foliage.

http://www.anbg.gov.au/bonsai/index.html most of these are done by no named artists and i would class these as master pieces before i classed your Melaleuca as one.


And just because its the only one that flowers does not make it any more special.


You think its a masterpiece I do not, again here at bnut we feature a war of opinion.

 

[Anonymous User]

Hmmm, let me see if I can explain this simply enough to stop this nonsense...


It doesn't matter what tree I post here, some will think it is great, some will not, each person will have their own opinion, based on many factors, some may even be based on actual experience creating something as good or better.

Some will say something does not belong here because they think so, based on personal opinion, others will say it just to cause conflict, some will say it without having the slightest clue what they are talking about, and some will say it based on vast experience.

Some will like one tree that others do not, some will dislike some that others like.....the same would happen if I was posting collected trees here.

What it all boils down to is that it really doesn't matter what others think, masterpiece in one eye or junk in anothers....it makes no difference at all and is just a dead end argument (as far as the point goes) that will go nowhere.

The point is and always has been that you don't need to spend thousands or collect, or shop at a bonsai nursery to make quality bonsai. The small mix here I actually got to post consists of world-class to very respectable bonsai, all from nursery stock.

Making quality bonsai from ordinary nursery stock can and continues to be done.


Rick,

Had the thread been allowed to progress without "diluting" it with, what are no more than personal opinions, the ends would have explained the means.

But, enough of this, no explanation is necessary. The gallery (in progress as we speak) will be posted at AoB sometime soon, I will also write a brief intro on why it was created and the thoughts behind posting it there.

Until then, have fun....



Will

 

[Asus101]

But people dont look kindly when a poster adds his own tree to the masterpeice list. I did think this was a humble art.

 

[Anonymous User]

But people dont look kindly when a poster adds his own tree to the masterpeice list. I did think this was a humble art.

The only person here who did that was Behr, and those were some damn nice examples. I'm glad he posted them. If he gets a few more of that quality, he'll have a gallery at AoB.




Will

 

[Boondock]

The only person here who did that was Behr, and those were some damn nice examples. I'm glad he posted them. If he gets a few more of that quality, he'll have a gallery at AoB. Will

That statement assumes that having a gallery at "Aob" is important.

somehow I believe that bonsai is more than art to Behr. I have the rare opportunity to know him, and I believe the idea of "art" or "Japanese" is just one or two ways to understand bonsai. I think he sees it in a different way.

 

[Anonymous User]

That statement assumes that having a gallery at "Aob" is important to him.

somehow I believe that bonsai is more than art to Behr. I have the rare opportunity to know him, and I believe the idea of "art" or "Japanese" is just one or two ways to understand bonsai.

Well, since Behr is an editor at AoB, I assume it is indeed "important" to him in some way.


Anyhow, I have no intention of debating everything but the subject here, I'll post in this thread again when I have the link to the nursery stock bonsai gallery.


Good night,


Will

 

[Rusty Harris]

Great idea for a thread Will. I will be sure to check out the gallery, once done, at AoB. I need some inspiration to renew my faith in common nursery stock becoming good, or rather great, bonsai. I have recently stopped plodding along on trying to make something from the too large collection of common nursery stock I somehow ended up with, an have turned my attention to more collected, pre trained stock. I look forward to seeing something real eye opening. I will adopt a wait and see attitude, and hope to see you selling the steak ( great bonsai) and not the sizzle ( your stance on nursery material).

 

[Boondock]

Well, since Behr is an editor at AoB,

I'm sorry, I've been occupied with other things for the last couple of months. I stand corrected. I did not know Behr was working for you now.

 

[Asus101]

Well, since Behr is an editor at AoB, I assume it is indeed "important" to him in some way.

Wasn't tom an editor at AoB?

 

[Walter Pall]

Here is an example that shows several things:

1) one can make good bonsai of lousy material
2) one can make good bonsai from ordinary tree nursery material
3) one can do this to gain experience
4) one shold not repeat this at all. The result is not a masterpiece and never will be one. The whole effort is a waste of time compared to what one could have done in twenty years starting with much better material.
5) much better material could have been found if I had the experience then that I have now. Well, this tells beginners that one of the most important skills to learn is to find material with good potential - anywhere.

Japanese maple, Acer palmatum, 55 cm high, 40 years old

Go to see the whole story: http://walter-pall.de/maplesjapanese_maple_nr__3.jpg.dir/index.html

 

[Vance Wood]

I'm sorry, I've been occupied with other things for the last couple of months. I stand corrected. I did not know Behr was working for you now.

Boondock:

I may be speaking out of school here but Behr is not an employee of AoB but a Contributing Editor--a big difference. The purpose of the editors is to add to the quality of the site, contribute articles, information, photos, and suggestions concerning future events, galleries, profiles and problems.

 

[AndyWilson]

I don't think this one was created by anyone special, nor could it be classed as a masterpiece. It hides trunk and all of the branch structuce. The most desirable show piece of a paper bark mel. is the bark, not the foliage.

http://www.anbg.gov.au/bonsai/index.html most of these are done by no named artists and i would class these as master pieces before i classed your Melaleuca as one.


And just because its the only one that flowers does not make it any more special.


You think its a masterpiece I do not, again here at bnut we feature a war of opinion.

But people dont look kindly when a poster adds his own tree to the masterpeice list. I did think this was a humble art.

It really is a fantastic idea Will and i think that posting a gallery will stop the interruptions and give people a chance to see the whole story first.

BTW Asus i believe that Melaluca is not Will's and would advise reading all the text first before trying to attack him again...

 

[agraham]

Andy,

It really doesn't matter what I post, some will argue the point. More photos are coming, judge them however you will.

Meanwhile, let's use this definition.... a masterpiece is anything that is better than what you personally have created.


Will

Are you kidding? Average hobbyist fare would easily be better than anything I have personally created.

I'm with you on this to a degree.I think excellent,even world class trees can be created from regular nursery stock.Especially shohin.The problem I see with the material is not the material itself,but the rush to create something from it.

Walter's maple could have been a masterpiece if he had taken the base and started over instead of trying to create something using the existing structure.If he would have had the knowledge,determination and skills 30 years ago that he has now it would be a much better tree today.

Behr's trees are great examples of what can be done with common nursery material in a relatively short period of time, but I wouldn't call them masterpieces on the world stage(as he didn't).I wouldn't even consider them the best examples of his work, but his opinion may be different than mine.

I can only imagine the quality of work that people like Behr or Vance could have achieved if they would have had the time,opportunity and resources to work on the best raw material out there...be that collected or nursery stock.

I'm looking forward to the gallery at AOB.I'm too lazy and unconnected to prove our point.

Of course it's your prerogative,but why post a gallery there to make the case for your opinion expressed here?

andy

 

[Vance Wood]

Of course it's your prerogative,but why post a gallery there to make the case for your opinion expressed here?

andy

Because of the band width devoted to photographs. The photo display will be far better than anything that can be posted here even in the gallery.

This begs a question; Why are the most vocal detractors of this kind of venture also the least active in posting photos of their own work? After I have sat through a barrage of diatribe, criticism and negative feed back I often go to the members list and search out photos of some of these people's work to see if they even have a clue what they are talking about. I see no evidence for a great many of them. That of course does not mean they do not have credible trees to display but that they care more for the war of ideas than the demonstration of art. It would seem that they are more interested in tearing down the work of someone else than they are in creating bonsai of their own.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Here is an example that shows several things:

1) one can make good bonsai of lousy material
2) one can make good bonsai from ordinary tree nursery material
3) one can do this to gain experience

With talent yes and this is a good example.

4) one shold not repeat this at all. The result is not a masterpiece and never will be one. The whole effort is a waste of time compared to what one could have done in twenty years starting with much better material.

Walter I applaud you courage and candour in displaying one of your "dogs" so to speak. It is indeed bonsai, wrt the quality well? do they all have to be masterpieces? Do you honestly believe that if it were not for this tree as part of your pilgrimage you would have achieved the wisdom you have aspired to? Do you honestly believe you had the talent back then to work on greater material? Through your own admittance not? Would greater material at the time provide better results? I don't believe so, as discussed great material in the hands of untalented individuals results in sub standard bonsai, whilst sub standard material in the hands of a talented individual results in a credible bonsai.

5) much better material could have been fond in a tree if I had the experience then that I have now. Well, this tells beginners that one of the most important skills to learn is to find material with good potential - anywhere.

... yes indeed it does, and I like your approach to this discussion. However, I believe the best thing a beginner can learn is patience above anything else, that is the one thing that cannot be taught, it can be influenced, but until the neophyte has learned from his mistakes, he doesn't possess the wisdom to advance any further. We call it when the "light comes on". Was all that was previously done a waste of time, or part of the educational process? However, how long one spends in the primary grades is a totally different story. What does determine this?

Well I believe it could be a lack of talent, funds, material availability or a combination of all.