Masterpieces and their flaws

[october]

Hello everyone..I am posting this because of something Judy B said that resonated with me. Here are several trees the "break the rules" and have "flaws". Yet still considered masterpieces. None of these are my trees or my critiques. Just things taken from different sources such as old books that I have.

Rob

 

[october]

more...

p.s. Anyone notice that the second tree here is similar to someone else's bunjin.

Rob

 

[Don Blackmond]

I guess the obvious question is, what is a flaw and who gets to decide its a flaw?

 

[aidan13]

I believe I read a quote from Bill Watterson, actually, describing the process behind the creation of this particular strip.


I don't remember the exact quote, but he was referencing how he had to study up on different abstract forms and the rules of perspective in order to execute the strip well. It was something along the lines of "You have to know the rules before you can break them."

It seems applicable here. If you want to create any piece of art that breaks the rules, you have to know them and be able to follow them first.

I imagine that's what makes those trees so great; the artists behind them understood exactly what they were doing, and were able to make something that not simply broke the rules, but was executed with enough artistry that the rules were simply not necessary.

 

[Tona]

Not sure if flaw is the right word. Difference in perception and style maybe. When I study any tree, I always think "if this is my tree I would.........". There is never an absolute (although some artists that are sticklers for the "rules" may say there is).
When I look at each of these trees, I see great trees but I also see areas that in my opinion and based on my own perception and style preference, could be changed for the better. Someone else may either like them as they are or have a different perception of what they could be.
That is the beauty of art!!!
Tona

 

[october]

All good points. Here are 2 more pics. I think what all these trees have in common, besides beauty, is the fact they they are all old and/or ancient trees. I think that when a tree is very old, it can get away and accomplish many things. It's almost like it has earned it's respect. I personally do love the japanese aesthetics and I do strive for the symmetry that they have long perfected. However, I do not have any 300-500 year old trees either. Pines for example, although I love the alleged "cookie cutter pines", I love and am usually blown away by the old yamadori pine bonsai that loosely resemble the styles.

Rob

 

[fourteener]

The danger here is that someone has a lousy tree and thinks it's really great. 85% of this years college freshman believe they are above average. There is a thing as a flaw that is insurmountable. Just like the college students there are trees that are just average.

Following the rules doesn't always create beauty, not following the rules is no guarantee of failure. In the end you have to stand back, take a look. Art has to grab your attention.

It there a strange expectation with bonsai. Knowing you can change it I mean? No one goes to an art museum and evaluates a work of art based on what they would do to change it. They just take it in for what it is.

I think I'm rambling!!

 

[october]

The danger here is that someone has a lousy tree and thinks it's really great. 85% of this years college freshman believe they are above average. There is a thing as a flaw that is insurmountable. Just like the college students there are trees that are just average.

Following the rules doesn't always create beauty, not following the rules is no guarantee of failure. In the end you have to stand back, take a look. Art has to grab your attention.

It there a strange expectation with bonsai. Knowing you can change it I mean? No one goes to an art museum and evaluates a work of art based on what they would do to change it. They just take it in for what it is.

I think I'm rambling!!

Well said, especially, the last part. I used to go to museums somewhat often and it did not matter whether the piece was very basic or advanced/complicated. I never thought, well, I would have done this differently.

Like I said, I think it depends on the tree. A 300 year old yamadori pine styled by a master that has, for example, a branch growing from an inside curve can be fine. In my opinion, if it pulls the silhoutte together, then the actual "flaw" is just as important to the tree as any other part.

Rob

 

[fourteener]

All good points. Here are 2 more. I think what all these trees have in common, besides beauty, is the fact they they are all old and/or ancient trees. I think that when a tree is very old, it can get away and accomplish many things. It's almost like it has earned it's respect. I personally do love the japanese aesthetics and I do strive for the symmetry that they have long perfected. However, I do not have any 300-500 year old trees either. Pines for example, although I love the alleged "cookie cutter pines", I love and am usually blown away by the old yamadori pine bonsai that loosely resemble the styles.

Rob

Legit age does get more of a pass in my mind. Earning respect through age. Some of bonsai is about believability. Do I believe that this tree could exist in nature or is it too contrived. It's funny to me how I see a bonsai and think it looks artificial, only to find a tree out on a hike that proves me wrong. The rules don't always get followed by Mother Nature either!!

 

[october]

Perhaps it is about individual perspective..as long as the individual is well informed..

Yup..perspective..

Rob

 

[catfish chapstick]

great topic

Hello everyone..I am posting this because of something Judy B said that resonated with me. Here are several trees the "break the rules" and have "flaws". Yet still considered masterpieces. None of these are my trees or my critiques. Just things taken from different sources such as old books that I have.

Rob

wow that first one is just... amazing.

it can't be a flaw if it makes a good design. and what is perceived as a flaw gets tested by a bold artist.. following perceived rules won't break any ground. abandoning restrictions, boldly experimenting, going against the grain, and not being afraid of looking like a failure is what sets apart the good artists from the truly great artists. it happens in all creative fields. i wish it were encouraged more in bonsai. thinking outside of the box is so much more difficult than playing by the rules.

when cubism rose to popularity lots of people and artists were reluctant to give it credit but history shows how massively significant and influential the movement was. i'm not sure that i get the cartoon exactly.

 

[gergwebber]

I guess "flaw" is an ambiguous word.

What would you call a jin in regards to this point of view? Synthetic flaws? Allusions to flaws?

perhaps a "flawless" tree is also a paradox.


In my design studio for this quarter we were give "strict guidelines" on how much of each type of rendering we had to put on each sheet of paper, how big the paper was etc...
A lot of people ignored or tweaked those guidelines and did it very well.

It did not matter if you bent the rules so long as you had a good reason to do so, and so long as you did it with style.

All art operates with this as a basic premise.

 

[nathanbs]

It's funny we were just talking about this at class today. First of all as others mentioned it cannot be considered a flaw unless it takes away from the composition. Second the "rules" are simply fundamentals to help one that is interested in bonsai have a basic understanding and basic ability to start styling and pruning trees. Only later do you realize that these fundamentals can be adjusted and changed to cater to the needs of a particular tree or design. If you do not teach a beginner that branches should not cross, that bar branches are a no-no, etc they will never get beyond a tangle of branches. The unique characteristics in the trees pictured are a much more advanced technique that once achieved can produce a tree much greater and interesting than a tree that strictly adheres to the fundamentals

 

[Dan W.]

There's a box?

Lol, of course there is. But.. . what I find interesting, is that it usually isn't the original artist who creates the box. The box is created by someone else who studies the piece and decides the boundaries for future works in the same category.

As stated many times before by many others: the "rules" are important and necessary, but not life or death. They are simply helpful guidelines.

Good rules should be spring boards rather than chains in my opinion.

 

[William N. Valavanis]

Yes, many people (including me sometimes!) often look at bonsai and begin to pick them apart commenting on areas which could have been improved or are disliked. I feel bonsai must be created to please the artist, not the public. Often bonsai are only created to impress others, rather than to express the beauty and understanding of the bonsai artist.

But, as I've been aging and gaining more experience in this art, I feel it's more important to first appreciate the bonsai for the beauty it displays. I may not agree with the design, but it is beautiful in a sense. I try to respect the age of the bonsai and the efforts the artist went to in designing and growing the bonsai. This is not often easy, but I try.

Looking back through my decades of bonsai study I remember well many old trees I was designing and trying to design them to fit the standards I was originally taught. Many lived and became acceptable bonsai. But many died, unfortunately. If I worked around their unique focal points and tried to make them look good, they would have lived and become stunning bonsai.

I now believe compromises must be made to respect old trees and to work with them, rather than to always change their design.

If one wants to create bonsai which fit established guidelines I think it is necessary to begin with young material, ideally from seed, cutting, air layer or grafted trees. If bonsai are created from young material there is no reason for making compromises, as the artist has control of the design.

Unfortunately, this method requires time, which most people don't have or want to put into their art. Instant gratification is of prime importance to many bonsai artists, who often get old collected material, or large nursery stock, and try to form them into artistic shapes. Many of these instant creations are good, in my opinion, but most are not because the artist forgets about basic design principles which are of paramount importance in any bonsai creation.

Many bonsai artists forget the design part, skip over the beginner's bonsai study and jump right into the large material to get instant gratification and recognition. Unfortunately, many lack the basic design background, techniques and experience necessary for creating acceptable bonsai.

Unfortunately a small size, skinny trunk elegant bonsai is not as powerful as an aged heavy trunk collected tree which most everyone is attracted to. Size and mass does matter when first attracting the eye. A large, massive trunk, often with huge amounts of dead wood is impressive, but in my opinion, beauty must first be displayed.

Fortunately, with learned and skilled bonsai instructors throughout our great and wide country, the North American bonsai community, is beginning to appreciate the artistic beauty of fine-quality bonsai.

Just my thoughts this morning on a topic I feel is important and often forgotten.

Bill

 

[johng]

Looking back through my decades of bonsai study I remember well many old trees I was designing and trying to design them to fit the standards I was originally taught. Many lived and became acceptable bonsai. But many died, unfortunately. If I worked around their unique focal points and tried to make them look good, they would have lived and become stunning bonsai.

Thanks Bill...very insightful...I am especially intrigued by the comment quoted above...

??? faults =(can equal) unique focal points...thus avoiding the boring(read acceptable) bonsai

John

 

[catfish chapstick]

crossing branches is often seen as a flaw in bonsai that causes some kind of visual tension.

'never let branches cross' is seen as one of those rules that almost everyone follows.

here is an example of a tree with many crossing branches. it looks like the artist was intentionally breaking this rule as much as possible. it could just boil down to opinion but doesn't this represent a rule that is perceived yet shouldn't exist?



I think often enough that when people style collected material and love the result it's really because they have let nature do the rule-bending for them. collected material often yields a result that your brain would probably never have constructed if perhaps you started with a seed and worked your way up.

 

[Anthony]

It's simply a case of do you like the design or not.

Then those with [agreed upon universally] experience and taste will have their say.

Very personal or very intellectually studious.
Good Morning.
Anthony

 

[aidan13]

when cubism rose to popularity lots of people and artists were reluctant to give it credit but history shows how massively significant and influential the movement was. i'm not sure that i get the cartoon exactly.

Cubism involves the distortion and breaking of certain rules of perspective.The quote was from the cartoonist explaining how in order to draw the cartoon well, he had to study the rules of perspective in order to know how to break them properly.

 

[Gene Deci]

At a major bonsai show I attended a couple of years ago, I couldn’t help overhearing two gentlemen discussing a tree. One of them really liked the tree. The other disapproved because the first branch was not the longest. As I listened, it was clear that both of them knew the “rules” very well, and more importantly, they also understood the aesthetics behind them.

The one who disapproved finally said, “I just can’t get past that short first branch.”

When they moved on I stopped to look at that tree again. It had been one of my favorites but as I looked at that short branch, I tried to envision how it might be improved. But then I thought, “What a shame that the one gentleman could not see the beauty of the tree because it broke a rule.” I stopped analyzing and just let myself enjoy the tree as it was. It was an easy tree to like.

Our perception of beauty is largely learned. That is true of all of us. But you can miss a lot by refusing to see.