Is bonsai art? - inspired by BVF

[MichaelS]

You can always tell the guy who really, really, really.... knows what he is doing in Bonsai...

by the whole notion of him calling his trees "Specimens "...

Sad story you have there!
Perhaps you should write a novel regarding it? Could be a Worse Seller?

I do have one question though?

Are you really going to sit here and tell me that you moving your tree slightly in a pot... or you breaking a branch and leaving it... is your idea of perhaps finding the holy grail, of a Concious thought? Creative intuition?

If so... you certainly seem to live a very shallow life, full of little hopes and dreams, don't you? Must be a thrill to hangout with you! Hey... we could do something really inspiring... or just sit and do nothing instead!
Who wants to get wild and Crazy snd live a little? We could Break a branch... and leave it still broken!

Yep, you are right...
For some people I guess a "Craft" is all the are ever going to be?

And to think you just spent the last 30 years, day in and day out... seven days a week Being a "Craft". Sad really... just going through the motions.

I am not quite sure what "Art-Friends" you are talking about that I seem to be hanging around talking "Arty" stuff too? None of my friends actually do Art... which isn't actually important... is it? You were just trying to show how I am somehow one of "those" people... I know. As if actually someone doing "Art" is a bad thing.

Which just pretty much sums up the whole notion, that you obviously have not the slightest idea of what I was discussing with my original post... Yet... somehow felt you were important enough to not only try and insult me... but then give me the sad details of your crappy life... as though I actually wanted them or cared?

I have been actually "Selling" my own Art,not Crafts... for longer than you have been doing Crappy Bonsai apparently? You don't know how hard I work... how many days I work... you don't know jack shit about what it is I actually do... yet are going to talk shit out of your ass?

My trees I do not call "Specimens "... because this is pretty much the biggest "Used Car Salesman" term... anyone could possibly use in Bonsai.

In fact, I would honestly tell anyone not to trust anything a person said, or did... who used this phrase. For next they will probably tell you... yeah Junipers can grow indoors, just fine!

I will let you get back to your "Craft"... wouldn't want to take away from all the fun and excitement you apparently seem to be having... and all that deep soul searching... you put into breaking a branch.

Still don't get it?
So I had a look at your little video thing. And you say you've been doing it longer that me? Mathematics! Wow. How technical. How....artistic! And the design. I've only seen it done this same way 10 million times before. Where is the art part? If someone looks at your video and does the same thing with their juniper, are they doing art too? I don't need to argue with you. You do it for me.

 

[MichaelS]

You can always tell the guy who really, really, really.... knows what he is doing in Bonsai...

by the whole notion of him calling his trees "Specimens "...

Sad story you have there!
Perhaps you should write a novel regarding it? Could be a Worse Seller?

I do have one question though?

Are you really going to sit here and tell me that you moving your tree slightly in a pot... or you breaking a branch and leaving it... is your idea of perhaps finding the holy grail, of a Concious thought? Creative intuition?

If so... you certainly seem to live a very shallow life, full of little hopes and dreams, don't you? Must be a thrill to hangout with you! Hey... we could do something really inspiring... or just sit and do nothing instead!
Who wants to get wild and Crazy snd live a little? We could Break a branch... and leave it still broken!

Yep, you are right...
For some people I guess a "Craft" is all the are ever going to be?

And to think you just spent the last 30 years, day in and day out... seven days a week Being a "Craft". Sad really... just going through the motions.

I am not quite sure what "Art-Friends" you are talking about that I seem to be hanging around talking "Arty" stuff too? None of my friends actually do Art... which isn't actually important... is it? You were just trying to show how I am somehow one of "those" people... I know. As if actually someone doing "Art" is a bad thing.

Which just pretty much sums up the whole notion, that you obviously have not the slightest idea of what I was discussing with my original post... Yet... somehow felt you were important enough to not only try and insult me... but then give me the sad details of your crappy life... as though I actually wanted them or cared?

I have been actually "Selling" my own Art,not Crafts... for longer than you have been doing Crappy Bonsai apparently? You don't know how hard I work... how many days I work... you don't know jack shit about what it is I actually do... yet are going to talk shit out of your ass?

My trees I do not call "Specimens "... because this is pretty much the biggest "Used Car Salesman" term... anyone could possibly use in Bonsai.

In fact, I would honestly tell anyone not to trust anything a person said, or did... who used this phrase. For next they will probably tell you... yeah Junipers can grow indoors, just fine!

I will let you get back to your "Craft"... wouldn't want to take away from all the fun and excitement you apparently seem to be having... and all that deep soul searching... you put into breaking a branch.

Really, someone who feels the need to descend into sarcasm, speaks volumes of the quality of his thinking. Pathetic and to be ignored.

 

[coh]

Your wit is breathtaking.

Thanks for noticing!

]

 

[MichaelS]

If skill and craft are synonyms of art
And you read number 4 again under the definition then the bonsai craft becomes art whether "they" want it to be or not.
This debate is one I've heard so many times here.

But amcg, number 4 is no definition. If it were, typing would be art.
Number 3 is an incomplete definition. It could mean that eating with friends was art.
Number 2 is also incomplete - unless you consider photography or tracing an image through paper an art, which they are not. Photography uses a machine to capture an image. Tracing is copying what is already there, just like taking pictures.
And number one is what the whole argument is about with regards to bonsai. What I argue is that very infrequently does bonsai use imagination. You can easily see that if you study the angle of the branches and the number and positions of the branches selected. Usually it is a pre-determined outcome derived from external sources. (Other bonsai seen at shows, on the web, in magazines, what we are told at workshops, what we see at demonstrations) Do you really believe that the sawgrass video is art or a regurgitation of what he has seen before. There can only be one answer if you are truthful to yourself. Why fight the truth? It's right there in front of you. (I'm not singling you out personally, but all those who refuse to accept it).

 

[Coach]

I usually avoid these discussions like the plague, but here I am. At the end of the day, I guess it doesn't matter to me whether bonsai falls under the umbrella of what is considered art or not. I find the process of developing and refining trees into a pleasing image enjoyable, and I hope that others enjoy them as well. Should that be considered art... maybe? Were the drawings I made in 2nd grade with crayons and colored pencils art? I dunno... I was told they were by my Art teacher when I was drawing them, so they must be, right? I kinda like Smoke's definition of art... at the end of the day, it's up to the viewer to decide. Fwiw, this drawing, by my teenage daughter, was displayed at the Dogwood Art Festival in Atlanta several weeks ago... drawn in charcoal. I could never do something like this, as it requires certain skills and mastered technique way beyond my reach. Is this art? I know what my answer is...
View attachment 142092 View attachment 142093

The eye of that horse is extraordinary. The whole piece is incredible but that eye is literally speaking to me, I can't stop staring at it...mesmerizing

 

[MichaelS]

In what possible way would it make any difference to anyone who does bonsai whether it was defined as an art, or a craft, or a hobby?

Ah,!!!!!!! here we have a good question. The reason for the EXTSTANCE of this argument.
Because if bonsai was considered art, all those who like to consider themselves artists would feel better about themselves. They would have the acknowledgment of their peers that they are ''special'' souls. They have some mysterious talent above and beyond mere ordinary folk. Someone to be revered. Someone who can command respect!
Really, it has probably more to do with calming an inferiority complex. And that's fine, everyone has that to some degree if they are honest. But you don't need to be an artist to do that either. You just need to do something you can be rightfully proud of.
Anyone else need counselling?

 

[_#1_]

Photography uses a machine to capture an image.

Photographers have a skill of capturing or creating a composition. The camera is a tool they use for that. Just as paint brush is to a painter.

I think you are arguing the process as not being art. And I agree. Slapping a bunch of paints on the ceiling is just that. But when finished, you have the sistine chapel, then it's art.

Same thing with photography. You look at the product, not the process or tools used.

 

[MichaelS]

Photographers have a skill of capturing or creating a composition. The camera is a tool they use for that. Just as paint brush is to a painter.

I think you are arguing the process as not being art. And I agree. Slapping a bunch of paints on the ceiling is just that. But when finished, you have the sistine chapel, then it's art.

Same thing with photography. You look at the product, not the process or tools used.

But I do look at the product. There is a tree, someone takes a picture of that tree, and there's exactly the same tree on a little piece of paper. That's your product. The photographer's skill is learned just as the skill of laying bricks is. No imagination is required. No unique thought needed. Believe me, I know plenty of people with a camera. In fact dosen't everyone have one now? There sure are a lot of artists floating around these days! Are you saying that if all these fools learned greater technical skills with their cameras (the tool) they become artists?

 

[amcoffeegirl]

It's right there in front of you. (I'm not singling you out personally, but all those who refuse to accept it).

It's fine
I'm not mad. I've been gone for awhile.
I rarely if ever agree with Sawgrass on anything. This maybe the first time. He has helped me in the past though with his direction.
I choose to see craft and art as interchangeable words.
Craftsman and artisan are the same to me.
For me branch placement, wiring, trimming- those are all potentially creative choices.
What frame/ pot to put it in.
I will continue to look for the beauty in the displays regardless.
I would like to see one of your trees so I could see if I think it is artfully designed. I will go look.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Ah,!!!!!!! here we have a good question. The reason for the EXTSTANCE of this argument.
Because if bonsai was considered art, all those who like to consider themselves artists would feel better about themselves. They would have the acknowledgment of their peers that they are ''special'' souls. They have some mysterious talent above and beyond mere ordinary folk. Someone to be revered. Someone who can command respect!
Really, it has probably more to do with calming an inferiority complex. And that's fine, everyone has that to some degree if they are honest. But you don't need to be an artist to do that either. You just need to do something you can be rightfully proud of.
Anyone else need counselling?

Boo.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

But I do look at the product. There is a tree, someone takes a picture of that tree, and there's exactly the same tree on a little piece of paper. That's your product. The photographer's skill is learned just as the skill of laying bricks is. No imagination is required. No unique thought needed. Believe me, I know plenty of people with a camera. In fact dosen't everyone have one now? There sure are a lot of artists floating around these days! Are you saying that if all these fools learned greater technical skills with their cameras (the tool) they become artists?

Ok
Yes I believe photography is art.
The training and skill to take a photo in an artful way is much more than just pressing a button and capturing what's in the frame.
So that does help me though.
Because not all photos are art- some are just capturing the moment- done by amatuers who may not care about being artful.
Some are journalism - where you try to tell a story. Some are portraits or products- where you want the item to be enhanced.
But when you start adding in composition, lighting etc the photo can become quite striking.
Sometimes in photography you just get lucky too and capture a great shot.

 

[coh]

Ah,!!!!!!! here we have a good question. The reason for the EXTSTANCE of this argument.
Because if bonsai was considered art, all those who like to consider themselves artists would feel better about themselves. They would have the acknowledgment of their peers that they are ''special'' souls. They have some mysterious talent above and beyond mere ordinary folk. Someone to be revered. Someone who can command respect!
Really, it has probably more to do with calming an inferiority complex. And that's fine, everyone has that to some degree if they are honest. But you don't need to be an artist to do that either. You just need to do something you can be rightfully proud of.
Anyone else need counselling?

The more I read from you, the more you sound like a frustrated "artist wanna-be". Maybe you failed out of art school? Or had all your work rejected from every show you entered? What other reason could there be for your strange obsession with artists (or those who might claim to be artists)?

 

[Potawatomi13]

I usually avoid these discussions like the plague, but here I am. At the end of the day, I guess it doesn't matter to me whether bonsai falls under the umbrella of what is considered art or not. I find the process of developing and refining trees into a pleasing image enjoyable, and I hope that others enjoy them as well. Should that be considered art... maybe? Were the drawings I made in 2nd grade with crayons and colored pencils art? I dunno... I was told they were by my Art teacher when I was drawing them, so they must be, right? I kinda like Smoke's definition of art... at the end of the day, it's up to the viewer to decide. Fwiw, this drawing, by my teenage daughter, was displayed at the Dogwood Art Festival in Atlanta several weeks ago... drawn in charcoal. I could never do something like this, as it requires certain skills and mastered technique way beyond my reach. Is this art? I know what my answer is...
View attachment 142092 View attachment 142093

Gorgeous. Cannot tell from a photo. Shows sensitivity and love for her subject.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Tree created with humility, sensitivity that is a living thing, patience, love is art. Tree created with technical skill, impatience, brutality, arrogance and no care or respect for life of tree no more than technical creation. No matter how perfect is not art.

So answer is Yes and No.

 

[Potawatomi13]

The more I read from you, the more you sound like a frustrated "artist wanna-be". Maybe you failed out of art school? Or had all your work rejected from every show you entered? What other reason could there be for your strange obsession with artists (or those who might claim to be artists)?

He makes very valid points and could add many proclaimed "artists" or want to be's have volatile, bordering psychotic personalities and are neurotic and cover with arrogance and sometimes demand for attention/acclaim. One does not have to be failed "artist" to see, observe, understand social undesirables. Personally consider exceedingly few such individuals rate any respect at all.

 

[grouper52]

Ah,!!!!!!! here we have a good question. The reason for the EXTSTANCE of this argument.
Because if bonsai was considered art, all those who like to consider themselves artists would feel better about themselves. They would have the acknowledgment of their peers that they are ''special'' souls. They have some mysterious talent above and beyond mere ordinary folk. Someone to be revered. Someone who can command respect!
Really, it has probably more to do with calming an inferiority complex. And that's fine, everyone has that to some degree if they are honest. But you don't need to be an artist to do that either. You just need to do something you can be rightfully proud of.
Anyone else need counselling?

LOL! It may interest you to know that my day job for the past 30+ years is as a board certified psychiatrist - and yes, you have hit the nail on the head, and that was my intent in writing the question. At this time in this culture 90% of everything is about narcissism, and our enfeebled underlying self-esteem demands that we be special folks. If we be doing bonsai, it bloody well better be an art, and we bloody well better be thought of by others and ourselves as "Artists"! (No accident that my album is named "Trees of a Hobbyist.")

 

[0soyoung]

Fortunately, I'm from Lake Wobegon.

 

[A Random User]

Ah,!!!!!!! here we have a good question. The reason for the EXTSTANCE of this argument.
Because if bonsai was considered art, all those who like to consider themselves artists would feel better about themselves. They would have the acknowledgment of their peers that they are ''special'' souls. They have some mysterious talent above and beyond mere ordinary folk. Someone to be revered. Someone who can command respect!
Really, it has probably more to do with calming an inferiority complex. And that's fine, everyone has that to some degree if they are honest. But you don't need to be an artist to do that either. You just need to do something you can be rightfully proud of.
Anyone else need counselling?

Yeah... I have one for you...

Seeing that you are some Boy Wonder... and have somehow figured out how the World works... and shit...

Ask yourself this...

Why do you Care what I... or people that have a similar view... say or think...
Here at this Site?

I mean... if all ' s well on your little patch of idiocrcy...

Than it seems this would not be an issue. Right?

I mean... you clearly seem to want to try and put people in their place with this post.
Right?

Gotta make sure some folks don't get to big for their britches and shit.

 

[MichaelS]

He makes very valid points and could add many proclaimed "artists" or want to be's have volatile, bordering psychotic personalities and are neurotic and cover with arrogance and sometimes demand for attention/acclaim. One does not have to be failed "artist" to see, observe, understand social undesirables. Personally consider exceedingly few such individuals rate any respect at all.

Well I read this no less than 4 times. I have no idea what you are saying but it honestly made me laugh out loud. Great work!

 

[MichaelS]

Yeah... I have one for you...

Seeing that you are some Boy Wonder... and have somehow figured out how the World works... and shit...

Ask yourself this...

Why do you Care what I... or people that have a similar view... say or think...
Here at this Site?

I mean... if all ' s well on your little patch of idiocrcy...

Than it seems this would not be an issue. Right?

It's not an issue, arguing is just a little side hobby which I enjoy from time to time. I really love getting people like you all hot and bothered. If you are hurting, I'll back off.