Is bonsai art? - inspired by BVF

[MichaelS]

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[Djtommy]

@MichaelS , is there anything you consider to be art?

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Quick question-why does it matter? Why do we care so much about what is art and what isn't art? Why can't we just grow our trees with our own set ideas about what is and isn't art? This topic has come up several times and there is never a clear and concise answer.

 

[_#1_]

People like/need to label things.

Without that label or some sort of title. The stuff they're doing will be meaningless.

I'm playing basketball = I'm playing sports

I'm drawing a scene by the lake = I'm doing visual arts

I'm doing bonsai by reshaping a tree from its naturally growing form = I'm.........

 

[Adair M]

I'm doing bonsai by reshaping a tree from its naturally growing form = I'm.........

My kids would say I'm torturing little trees! Lol!!!

 

[coh]

[

Some of your most insightful posting right there!

 

[JoeR]

Is sculpture not art? How is bonsai different than sculpture, other than the medium (live trees rather than clay or stone)? It's like advanced sculpture IMO, because you have to add elements such as patience, horticultural skills, etc.

 

[A Random User]

No not doing that. Each undertaking I make as if I was trying to emulate the best there is.



I have no time to kill



Moved on from that 30 years ago



Have moved past all that a long time ago as well. Each piece of work is now shaped right from the start to be not only unique but as naturalistic, dynamic as possible. Also it is not produced with a view to selling it but as if I was to tend the tree for the rest of my life. That's how much thought I put into each specimen.



Always doing that too. remaking apexes to adjust the direction and hence the ultimate mood of the tree. Re-adjusting the rootage and planting angle each time the tree is to go back into the growing bed or pot. There are only so many permutations you can do until you start repeating. Trust me. I have even gone as far as to purposefully break branches and leave them in their broken positions to give further interest and uniqueness.


See above



No still a craft. You have just perfected your technique.



I go out of my way to do things which are a little beyond the level of the average. I can do that because I have the experience, perhaps closer study if the subject, maybe a willingness to try just a bit harder. None of that makes me an artist. Just determined to achieve a goal.
Kind of like a sports dude.



In my case, that's pretty much what I'm doing. I know that because I actually do all the things you mention 7 days a week. Yes 7. No vacations, just trees. It's just application of a learned set of skills. THATS what it ACTUALLY is. Nothing more. People who tinker here, read a bit there, chippy choppy now, twist a wire then, do not have the view or understanding that someone who lives the damn thing does.
Please stop writing about something which you and your little artist friends make painfully obvious that you have limited understanding of.....My friend.

You can always tell the guy who really, really, really.... knows what he is doing in Bonsai...

by the whole notion of him calling his trees "Specimens "...

Sad story you have there!
Perhaps you should write a novel regarding it? Could be a Worse Seller?

I do have one question though?

Are you really going to sit here and tell me that you moving your tree slightly in a pot... or you breaking a branch and leaving it... is your idea of perhaps finding the holy grail, of a Concious thought? Creative intuition?

If so... you certainly seem to live a very shallow life, full of little hopes and dreams, don't you? Must be a thrill to hangout with you! Hey... we could do something really inspiring... or just sit and do nothing instead!
Who wants to get wild and Crazy snd live a little? We could Break a branch... and leave it still broken!

Yep, you are right...
For some people I guess a "Craft" is all the are ever going to be?

And to think you just spent the last 30 years, day in and day out... seven days a week Being a "Craft". Sad really... just going through the motions.

I am not quite sure what "Art-Friends" you are talking about that I seem to be hanging around talking "Arty" stuff too? None of my friends actually do Art... which isn't actually important... is it? You were just trying to show how I am somehow one of "those" people... I know. As if actually someone doing "Art" is a bad thing.

Which just pretty much sums up the whole notion, that you obviously have not the slightest idea of what I was discussing with my original post... Yet... somehow felt you were important enough to not only try and insult me... but then give me the sad details of your crappy life... as though I actually wanted them or cared?

I have been actually "Selling" my own Art,not Crafts... for longer than you have been doing Crappy Bonsai apparently? You don't know how hard I work... how many days I work... you don't know jack shit about what it is I actually do... yet are going to talk shit out of your ass?

My trees I do not call "Specimens "... because this is pretty much the biggest "Used Car Salesman" term... anyone could possibly use in Bonsai.

In fact, I would honestly tell anyone not to trust anything a person said, or did... who used this phrase. For next they will probably tell you... yeah Junipers can grow indoors, just fine!

I will let you get back to your "Craft"... wouldn't want to take away from all the fun and excitement you apparently seem to be having... and all that deep soul searching... you put into breaking a branch.

 

[A Random User]

People like/need to label things.

Without that label or some sort of title. The stuff they're doing will be meaningless.

I'm playing basketball = I'm playing sports

I'm drawing a scene by the lake = I'm doing visual arts

I'm doing bonsai by reshaping a tree from its naturally growing form = I'm.........

Personally... could give two shits about a label.

But, there is an actual difference between someone doing a piece of Art and someone doing a piece of Craft.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Wow...I think it's much easier just tinkering in my backyard...tossing some wire on a tree...offering it horticultural needs...and enjoying life. And not worrying about what category it fits into. I'm a daughter,wife,mother,sister and friend. But I am one person...I think bonsai is just that...a different title to each person. Doesn't change what the process means to each one. Just a different title to each one. At the end of the day...that is all that matters.

 

[_#1_]

Personally... could give two shits about a label.

But, there is an actual difference between someone doing a piece of Art and someone doing a piece of Craft.

But would you agree a piece of art is the product of a finished craft?

Example:
Basketball, football, baseball are sports.

Drawing, painting, sculpting, bonsai are visual arts. Falls under art in general.

 

[M. Frary]

Dance is an art too.
You know you're in the presence of a master when I bust out the funky chicken.

 

[A Random User]

But would you agree a piece of art is the product of a finished craft?

Example:
Basketball, football, baseball are sports.

Drawing, painting, sculpting, bonsai are visual arts. Falls under art in general.

Yes.

With my original statement...

I was pretty clear... regarding that yes, both Craft and Art are the same thing for the most part. That is they both often will use the same materials, etc... and both are in essence creating a piece of Work.

Where the difference really lies at least in my own personal opinion.... has alot to do with what the actual Creator of the work chose to convey within this work.

Did they just seek to create the work just because it was something to do?

Did they just try to do what what everyone else was doing with the work? By this I mean... copy or duplicate.

Or, did they seek to do what they felt the work should be... and step out on a limb of their own identity within the piece.

This last example, is where I think the key to someone doing "Art"... is to be found.

Yes... there are a million paintings of portraits of people, scattered throughout the world... So, the concept of someone painting a person is not new. And just because someone paints one... does not mean it is necessarily Art... where the key difference really is... is did the creator of the piece seek to express themselves within the work... or did they just paint a person.

Nine times out of ten, you can tell the difference. Often, the creators view will come through in what it is they wanted to express.
That they were not just duplicating a scene... they were not just doing a documentation of what it was they were painting... but, instead showing the world, through their eyes, their personal beliefs, expressions, life experiences, etc. What it was they they interpreted the scene to be. That there is much more going on than just someone Copying.

 

[leatherback]

I consider it an art .. To keep my wife from objecting against .. Just one more tree. So yeah. Bonsai is an art.

 

[my nellie]

I previously said

... ...It has been said above that everything human hands (i.e. the hands of the artisan) create is a craft. This I totally agree upon.
Let me add though... IF the artisan is creating his craft intending to communicate some sentiments of his to the viewers of his handicrafts, then he becomes an "Artist" and his handicrafts become "Objects of Art"... ...

And you Stacey have just described in detail and enriched my thoughts

... ...Where the difference really lies at least in my own personal opinion.... has alot to do with what the actual Creator of the work chose to convey within this work... ...
... ...Or, did they seek to do what they felt the work should be... and step out on a limb of their own identity within the piece... ...
... ...where the key difference really is... is did the creator of the piece seek to express themselves within the work... ...
... ...but, instead showing the world, through their eyes, their personal beliefs, expressions, life experiences, etc. What it was they they interpreted the scene to be. That there is much more going on than just someone Copying.

Very well said, in my personal opinion and estimation.

BUT, here comes another question.
If there is a two-way communication of the message of an Art work between the creator and the viewer, then what can be said in this case :

a) that the creator/craftsman is simply doing his craft/object copying some original pre-existing work and
b) that the viewer captures some kind of message through the object, it is causing emotions and a mental/psychological reaction to him​

Can we ever say that this handicraft/object is a piece of art only for the viewer?

​

 

[amcoffeegirl]

You can paint lines on a canvas and call it art. You can paint center lines on a street and call it a trade.
Is the architect an artist? Is the regular landscaper an artist? Is the chef?
There are many creators of bonsai that I would refer to as bonsai artists- I feel that is the appropriate title.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

"I am always caring for my bonsai trees- it's as necessary for me as eating every day." - Kunio Kobayashi
A cross between horticulture and art, bonsai trees may be tiny, but they have immense impact on the masters who care for them.


There is no doubt in my mind that bonsai is an art form and that bonsai masters are artists.
The tree is your canvas and the tools and wire are your brushes.
They are living art forms

 

[MichaelS]

@MichaelS , is there anything you consider to be art?

Here's one.

 

[MichaelS]

Some of your most insightful posting right there!

Your wit is breathtaking.

 

[MichaelS]

Is sculpture not art? How is bonsai different than sculpture, other than the medium (live trees rather than clay or stone)? It's like advanced sculpture IMO, because you have to add elements such as patience, horticultural skills, etc.

The fact that this question is even asked is what amazes me. 50% of what happens in bonsai is decided by the other organism in the equation. (the tree) In sculpture, 100% of what happens is decided by the sculptor. Do you think it is us who age a tree? No it's the tree. Do you think it's us who decides on branch positions. No. 90% of the time it is the tree. The way it should be. Do you think it is us who decides where it will ramify? No the tree does.
This is bonsai: Allowing some of the organism to develop and not allowing other parts to. What we end up with is a controlled organism. All sculpture is also not art. Making a perfect horse or a cat is just a slow form of photography. That's not to say it's not a masterpiece of course because you need to be a master to do it.