Is bonsai art? - inspired by BVF

[amcoffeegirl]

The process is to create- which is exactly why painters paint and sculptures sculpt.
Just my opinion I guess.

 

[coh]

By this definition people who create bonsai are practitioners of art.

I would modify your last statement to say "people who create bonsai can be practitioners of art."

What do I mean by that...let's use painting as an example. If I go out and get a picture of some painting by Monet, and then I painstakingly analyze it and paint a copy myself...I'll never get an exact replica (who knows what order the brushstrokes were applied, for example). But I could get it close enough that you might not be able to tell the difference at first glance. I wouldn't call my painting "art" even though I might well hang it on my wall. I didn't create anything original, I copied someone else's original creation. On the other hand, say I go to a Monet exhibition, see dozens or hundreds of examples of his work...then go home and, inspired, create my own "pseudo-Monet", either from a scene or my imagination. That I would call art, even if my painting winds up looking a lot like one of his.

Similarly with bonsai (or just about any other "artistic" endeavor). If I take a photo of a Kimura tree, analyze its dimensions, then attempt to replicate it exactly, I wouldn't call that art. But if I found a piece of raw material and then styled it "like Kimura would", but all my own work, all my own decisions about ratios, size, etc - then I consider that art.

I think photography can also be considered art. Say you are impressed by a scene in nature. You can't capture the entirety of it with a single photograph; you must crop, or choose some subset, what you consider important. That selection process is artistic in my opinion. It becomes even more so if you later adjust that photo to enhance whatever feeling or mood you want to convey.

I don't get why some people want to limit the definition so severely though I have some ideas...that are probably best kept to myself

 

[amcoffeegirl]

What definition are they limiting though? Really?

 

[amcoffeegirl]

If skill and craft are synonyms of art
And you read number 4 again under the definition then the bonsai craft becomes art whether "they" want it to be or not.
This debate is one I've heard so many times here.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Where people get stuck I think is- art is a noun.
But the process of creating is an action.

So even when you paint a copy of monet you are still creating art- even if it will go in the trash upon completion.
Honestly if I could recreate a Monet I'm still hanging that up in my living room.

 

[coh]

What definition are they limiting though? Really?

Have you read some of the comments by various members regarding what is/is not art in the various threads where it's being discussed?

If skill and craft are synonyms of art
And you read number 4 again under the definition then the bonsai craft becomes art whether "they" want it to be or not.

I don't agree with that regardless of the source of that definition you posted! Just being able to do something over and over because you've practiced it a lot doesn't make it art in my opinion. You start making changes, adding your own inspiration...then you might have something.

 

[Cadillactaste]

The craft...creates art in a sense...yes. But...my masterpiece isn't done yet in my eyes... So it's not complete...so it's not a finished art piece yet in my eyes. But, on another aspect...I'm on a spring high. The watching things waking up...so, I see the success of horticulture skills that were successful. So...as my brain is on overload as I admire the wakening...I can't help but see horticulture success...and my chest puffs with pride another winter under my belt.

Thought to look up the definition..."as in the arts" is clearly in the definition. I think it's how each perceives things...as to the words they choose. No one is right or wrong here. The end results are the same.

craft (krăft) n. 1. Skill in doing or making something, as in the arts; proficiency.

 

[drew33998]

If the artist thinks it is art then yes.

 

[chicago1980]

To me, Bonsai is Art & Science.

 

[M. Frary]

He liked nap and milk and graham crackers. Two of my favs as well.....

What classes did you like?

And lunch of course.
It's where I made eating into an art.

 

[namnhi]

I don't care whether it is art or not! It relaxes me and I like what am doing... That is all that matter.

 

[A Random User]

Geez...

Craps... I mean Crafts... are things 5 year olds do with popsicle sticks... glue, and occasionally paper doilies...

All I want to know is what happened to these?







And who is going to be the first to incorporate one into their Bonsai Display?

Seeing apparently we are all hanging out back at summer camp... doing Crafts.

 

[A Random User]

To answer the OP'S question... with just pretty much the obvious...

That being...

At some point when you are no longer doing just mindless creations...

Trying to kill time, or to have a hobby other than golfing with fat old farts... because hey, "Why Not"?

And you move past just the "Hey wouldn't it be Cool" to grow a Bonsai Tree from a Box, I picked up at Barnes and Nobles...

And you begin to move past all the basic fundamentals of wiring, bending a branch, repotting, keeping a tree alive, and creating awesome amounts of Ramification... Yippee!

You begin to try and really play with the whole notion of a tree's composition, it's perspective, it's story... how different weight can effect a tree... what a particular type of line within a tree can mean... how if you tweek it just slightly, it can break or ruin the design... and give the tree a whole different feel.. etc.

And move into a world of Conciously trying to have a drastic impact on what you are doing... trying to logically think about what it is you are doing... and if it is the right thing to do... what kind of impact it might have, and if this is the impact I am actually trying to show with my work. Asking yourself how is it's story different, and if it is not... how can I make it so... seeing that I want it to be so, if not... then what is the point, of doing it in the first place?

When, you move on to such a point with any Craft... you are no longer doing a Craft.

You have taken this one step beyond... and are not just trying really hard to just make something cool that looks like what 5 million other people just created in a tree... you are actually creating a piece of yourself, and seeking to do much more.

People should not compare this to making a Crochet Owl, to sell at a Bake Sale.
This is wrong.
Unless of course all they are really doing is trying to kill time... than Cool. No problems here!

 

[MichaelS]

To answer the OP'S question... with just pretty much the obvious...

That being...

At some point when you are no longer doing just mindless creations...

Trying to kill time, or to have a hobby other than golfing with fat old farts... because hey, "Why Not"?

And you move past just the "Hey wouldn't it be Cool" to grow a Bonsai Tree from a Box, I picked up at Barnes and Nobles...

And you begin to move past all the basic fundamentals of wiring, bending a branch, repotting, keeping a tree alive, and creating awesome amounts of Ramification... Yippee!

You begin to try and really play with the whole notion of a tree's composition, it's perspective, it's story... how different weight can effect a tree... what a particular type of line within a tree can mean... how if you tweek it just slightly, it can break or ruin the design... and give the tree a whole different feel.. etc.

And move into a world of Conciously trying to have a drastic impact on what you are doing... trying to logically think about what it is you are doing... and if it is the right thing to do... what kind of impact it might have, and if this is the impact I am actually trying to show with my work. Asking yourself how is it's story different, and if it is not... how can I make it so... seeing that I want it to be so, if not... then what is the point, of doing it in the first place?

When, you move on to such a point with any Craft... you are no longer doing a Craft.

You have taken this one step beyond... and are not just trying really hard to just make something cool that looks like what 5 million other people just created in a tree... you are actually creating a piece of yourself, and seeking to do much more.

People should not compare this to making a Crochet Owl, to sell at a Bake Sale.
This is wrong.
Unless of course all they are really doing is trying to kill time... than Cool. No problems here!

And after you've done every one of the things you mentioned for the 5000th time, (mass production without sacrificing quality - in fact quality in every aspect improves) let me know them if you still think the same way about it.

 

[sorce]

but here I am

Jesus Christ Dav4!

Good thing!

That is......

Well...I could either drop like a thousand cuss bombs...or just remain speechless!

Sorce

 

[A Random User]

And after you've done every one of the things you mentioned for the 5000th time, (mass production without sacrificing quality - in fact quality in every aspect improves) let me know them if you still think the same way about it.

Won't have to wait till after I have done them my Friend...
Have been doing them for sometime.
You need to get with the Program... I would not of actually spent the time typing all the shit if I didn't actually know it to be true.

So... when you reach the day where you have actually done any of theses things... you can PM me to tell me I was right. And I will not hold it against you. Until that time... have fun at camp with your crafts!
Have a good day.

 

[sorce]

centuries on a museum wall and is still appreciated, Art.

I was thinking....

http://www.usna.usda.gov/Gardens/collections/bonsai.html

Just as a painting, sculpture, or reel to reel Second Generation Beatles Album, (yeah, I know a guy!) has to be maintained by a caretaker, so does a bonsai.....

And just as a Audiophile wouldn't know how to dust an Artifact, an Artifact duster wouldn't know how to maintain a bonsai...

But without these people...

No art lasts centuries...

Still or alive!

For non teahousers....
Riddle Pic.


Solving the riddle.....

Why is this amazing?

Leads to Understanding Bonsai as art.

I bet if we ask the custodial engineer at the art museum, Art may be....

A pain in the ass!

Different mop strokes!

Sorce

 

[MichaelS]

sawgrass,

Won't have to wait till after I have done them my Friend...
Have been doing them for sometime.
You need to get with the Program... I would not of actually spent the time typing all the shit if I didn't actually know it to be true.

So... when you reach the day where you have actually done any of theses things... you can PM me to tell me I was right. And I will not hold it against you. Until that time... have fun at camp with your crafts!
Have a good day.

At some point when you are no longer doing just mindless creations...

No not doing that. Each undertaking I make as if I was trying to emulate the best there is.

Trying to kill time, or to have a hobby other than golfing with fat old farts... because hey, "Why Not"?

I have no time to kill

And you move past just the "Hey wouldn't it be Cool" to grow a Bonsai Tree from a Box, I picked up at Barnes and Nobles...

Moved on from that 30 years ago

And you begin to move past all the basic fundamentals of wiring, bending a branch, repotting, keeping a tree alive, and creating awesome amounts of Ramification... Yippee!

Have moved past all that a long time ago as well. Each piece of work is now shaped right from the start to be not only unique but as naturalistic, dynamic as possible. Also it is not produced with a view to selling it but as if I was to tend the tree for the rest of my life. That's how much thought I put into each specimen.

You begin to try and really play with the whole notion of a tree's composition, it's perspective, it's story... how different weight can effect a tree... what a particular type of line within a tree can mean... how if you tweek it just slightly, it can break or ruin the design... and give the tree a whole different feel.. etc.

Always doing that too. remaking apexes to adjust the direction and hence the ultimate mood of the tree. Re-adjusting the rootage and planting angle each time the tree is to go back into the growing bed or pot. There are only so many permutations you can do until you start repeating. Trust me. I have even gone as far as to purposefully break branches and leave them in their broken positions to give further interest and uniqueness.

And move into a world of Conciously trying to have a drastic impact on what you are doing... trying to logically think about what it is you are doing... and if it is the right thing to do... what kind of impact it might have, and if this is the impact I am actually trying to show with my work. Asking yourself how is it's story different, and if it is not... how can I make it so... seeing that I want it to be so, if not... then what is the point, of doing it in the first place?

See above

When, you move on to such a point with any Craft... you are no longer doing a Craft.

No still a craft. You have just perfected your technique.

You have taken this one step beyond... and are not just trying really hard to just make something cool that looks like what 5 million other people just created in a tree... you are actually creating a piece of yourself, and seeking to do much more.

I go out of my way to do things which are a little beyond the level of the average. I can do that because I have the experience, perhaps closer study if the subject, maybe a willingness to try just a bit harder. None of that makes me an artist. Just determined to achieve a goal.
Kind of like a sports dude.

People should not compare this to making a Crochet Owl, to sell at a Bake Sale.

In my case, that's pretty much what I'm doing. I know that because I actually do all the things you mention 7 days a week. Yes 7. No vacations, just trees. It's just application of a learned set of skills. THATS what it ACTUALLY is. Nothing more. People who tinker here, read a bit there, chippy choppy now, twist a wire then, do not have the view or understanding that someone who lives the damn thing does.
Please stop writing about something which you and your little artist friends make painfully obvious that you have limited understanding of.....My friend.

 

[sorce]

You need to get with the Program

What program?

The "Bonsai Nut Program" has references from trusted individuals, not to mention posts from Michael himself....

To confirm his dedication, knowledge, and craftiness.

Oh....the S.A.M. program!

No...that changed......

The MichaelS program can apparently be found at the Aussie sight.....

If he MUST get with whatever program you speak of.....

Get with his too!

Sorce

 

[MichaelS]

[