Here comes the hard freeze for 2024

IMG_0302.png They’re saying this should be as cold as it gets for awhile Here near the twin cities. I hope so.
I’m very happy I have my greenhouse set up
It naturally stays 10 to 15° warmer in here.
My plants have been frozen solid for the last couple weeks, so I am hoping they froze saturated with enough water.IMG_0301.jpegIMG_0300.jpeg
 

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Prepped today. Dropped everything at minum to the ground. A couple trees against the house which I hope to unwire in the next few days. A bunch under the bench in the mulch as I usually do. Some stuff in the shed. The root over Junk trident weighs 130+lbs... i stupidly put it under the bench... broke an apical branch on getting it back out from under the bench. Never doing that again. Luckily top os getting air layered next year. A couple things left on the low bench but im not worried about pitch pines in the cold.

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It's supposed to go down to as low as 17F tonight but the rest of the week will be above 20 at night and in the 30s during the day.

Wonder if I really need to worry about my cold weather crew (mugo, scots and JWP) sitting on my bench. Walter Paul says we baby our trees too much and I tend to agree.

But where is that line? I still struggle with this every year.

I could move them down onto the deck next to the house for the next few days for a little extra protection.

@Dav4
I'd appreciate your opinion since you lived in Massachusetts and now sunny Michigan

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Image came from Bonsai Heresy by Michael Hagedorn where he compiled this list of common species from Iseli and Oregon State University's data.

The first number column is the tempature in F in which the roots died and the second column is the tempature in F in which top growth (branches, leaves, etc.) died.

Edit:Noticed the next page have Mugo Pine listed with a root kill tempature of 10 degrees F.


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What I extracted from the information, that for most of my species is that I should tend to my trees when the air tempature approaches 15 degrees. For me, that means taking them off the benches and setting them in the ground to use the earth's heat to keep the rootball above 15 degrees.

I do agree that some people do go a little overboard in their protection.
 
I didn't even get around to mulching any of my trees in this year, and they're not even in the best spot in the yard. Have to keep them behind a makeshift fence or else the dog likes to chew on them.

The only ones that got any special treatment are a couple collections from spring that I really don't want to lose, and those are on the porch against the wall of the house with a cardboard box closing them in.

I see allot of effort going into protecting trees that can very easily stand the conditions most are describing.
Relax! Trees have been doing this stuff allot longer than us. If it's a really really special one, than ok, but the rest are usually fine.
 
I didn't even get around to mulching any of my trees in this year, and they're not even in the best spot in the yard. Have to keep them behind a makeshift fence or else the dog likes to chew on them.

The only ones that got any special treatment are a couple collections from spring that I really don't want to lose, and those are on the porch against the wall of the house with a cardboard box closing them in.

I see allot of effort going into protecting trees that can very easily stand the conditions most are describing.
Relax! Trees have been doing this stuff allot longer than us. If it's a really really special one, than ok, but the rest are usually fine.
Just not in pots ;) . Full disclosure... I allow my trees to freeze solid every winter and don't mind if they stay that way for weeks or months, and I've routinely stated that overwintering deaths are most likely due to the deceased tree entering dormancy in a weakened state. Still, winter cold in some locales definitely can cause tree damage or worse. My back yard warmed all the way up to 10 F today but will be well below 0 F tomorrow and we probably won't see 20 F for a week, and some of my best trees are sitting out there, frozen solid all while sitting on a concrete block patio. Still, they're out of the sun and wind (mostly) and are mulched and have snow pushed up against them. Even without the snow, their placement and mulch would be enough. Still, less than ideal overwintering placement +/- once in a decade cold may smack you and your trees in the mouth if you are unlucky.
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Just not in pots ;) . Full disclosure... I allow my trees to freeze solid every winter and don't mind if they stay that way for weeks or months, and I've routinely stated that overwintering deaths are most likely due to the deceased tree entering dormancy in a weakened state. Still, winter cold in some locales definitely can cause tree damage or worse. My back yard warmed all the way up to 10 F today but will be well below 0 F tomorrow and we probably won't see 20 F for a week, and some of my best trees are sitting out there, frozen solid all while sitting on a concrete block patio. Still, they're out of the sun and wind (mostly) and are mulched and have snow pushed up against them. Even without the snow, their placement and mulch would be enough. Still, less than ideal overwintering placement +/- once in a decade cold may smack you and your trees in the mouth if you are unlucky.
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Oh, I understand that life in a pot is very different from life in the ground. I just figure a good rule of thumb is assume you lose one full growing zone on each end of the tree's normal range once it's in a pot. Example: if a tree normally thrives in zones 5 through 8, putting it in a pot makes it 6 and 7 assuming you do next to nothing to protect it.

I guess it just bugs me because the first couple years I tried so hard to protect my trees, but suffered possibly more losses than when I hardly tried. Stressing out, overthinking everything, winding up with the same results as if I'd done nothing.
 
Oh, I understand that life in a pot is very different from life in the ground. I just figure a good rule of thumb is assume you lose one full growing zone on each end of the tree's normal range once it's in a pot. Example: if a tree normally thrives in zones 5 through 8, putting it in a pot makes it 6 and 7 assuming you do next to nothing to protect it.

I guess it just bugs me because the first couple years I tried so hard to protect my trees, but suffered possibly more losses than when I hardly tried. Stressing out, overthinking everything, winding up with the same results as if I'd done nothing.
I should have added that, in my opinion, the KISS axiom to overwintering trees should apply but often isn't followed. Bonsai hobbyists are way too prone to overwintering trees inside- be that in a garage, basement, shed, etc., rather than outside in a protected area- on the north side of a house, shed, fence, etc.,- mulched and with a natural (landscape planting) or constructed (stacked hay bales or staked burlap) windbreak. Getting your cold hardy trees through the winter inside requires lots of effort and oversight and if you're not diligent in your care, you may end up with trees braking dormancy several months too early or dead trees that dried out at some point. My trees outside on the patio are in the "set it and forget it" mode because once they're placed in their overwintering spot and mulched in, I really don't do anything with them until it's warm enough to move them back out on the benches in March or April. I will periodically water (or place snow on top of the mulch there) the trees right up against the walls of my house because the eaves of my house are extremely deep and theoretically could dry out because they won't receive natural precipitation. Still, if the mulch freezes and stays that way, the most I'll do is add snow when available.
 
@Dav4. I agree with.your sentiment. If I cant leave a tree outside with some basic protection from the wind and sun... well, I dont want to kill myself keeping the tree. Im ok with a tree or two that needs some more protection given specific work performed but most of my trees I dont wsnt to have to try too hard to protect.
 
I didn't even get around to mulching any of my trees in this year, and they're not even in the best spot in the yard. Have to keep them behind a makeshift fence or else the dog likes to chew on them.

The only ones that got any special treatment are a couple collections from spring that I really don't want to lose, and those are on the porch against the wall of the house with a cardboard box closing them in.

I see allot of effort going into protecting trees that can very easily stand the conditions most are describing.
Relax! Trees have been doing this stuff allot longer than us. If it's a really really special one, than ok, but the rest are usually fine.
Lol I have that book, don't recall that table. The other page where all the pines are is what I need to look at. Will definitely do that after dinner here. Thanks
 
I see allot of effort going into protecting trees that can very easily stand the conditions most are describing.
Relax! Trees have been doing this stuff allot longer than us. If it's a really really special one, than ok, but the rest are usually fine.
I hear this argument a lot. I always go back to Michael Hagedorn’s Bonsai Heresy, chapter 13. Here, he presents an argument backed by a university research study (albeit unpublished) and the practices of one the largest nurseries in the country that hardiness in the natural environment is not as closely coupled to hardiness as one might expect. Hardiness zones are only based on “top kill” temperatures, as the earth insulates roots enough for root kill to not be a primary factor in viability. A plants ability to survive in certain ABOVE ground conditions do not necessarily imply it’s ability to survive if the conditions below the soil line are at a similar level.

And all this is just a discussion of our plants surviving, but I would hope the goal is not just basic survival but thriving. I follow what experts who make their livelihoods on plants do, as for them its do or die—I am yet to hear a professional simply dismiss winter protection as something to relax about.

I do understand what you’re saying in terms of causing harm trying to do good. I think the key is to make a plan based on your area and the experiences and successes of others, stick to the plan, and then relax.

…unless you get early leaf out, then figure out something quick.

edited to add: me and @Kievnstavick are on the same page (literally in this case!) as i see you posted the chart from that book above!
 
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Lol I have that book, don't recall that table. The other page where all the pines are is what I need to look at. Will definitely do that after dinner here. Thanks
I think you were trying to quote @Kievnstavick. LoL
I do need to get that book sometime, though.

I hear this argument a lot. I always go back to Michael Hagedorn’s Bonsai Heresy, chapter 13. Here, he presents an argument backed by a university research study (albeit unpublished) and the practices of one the largest nurseries in the country that hardiness in the natural environment is not as closely coupled to hardiness as one might expect. Hardiness zones are only based on “top kill” temperatures, as the earth insulates roots enough for root kill to not be a primary factor in viability. A plants ability to survive in certain ABOVE ground conditions do not necessarily imply it’s ability to survive if the conditions below the soil line are at a similar level.

And all this is just a discussion of our plants surviving, but I would hope the goal is not just basic survival but thriving. I follow what experts who make their livelihoods on plants do, as for them its do or die—I am yet to hear a professional simply dismiss winter protection as something to relax about.

I do understand what you’re saying in terms of causing harm trying to do good. I think the key is to make a plan based on your area and the experiences and successes of others, stick to the plan, and then relax.

…unless you get early leaf out, then figure out something quick.

edited to add: me and @Kievnstavick are on the same page (literally in this case!) as i see you posted the chart from that book above!
I understand, and I'm not saying everyone should just lay back and do nothing.
It's more I'm trying to remind people that it's going to be ok, it's not as hard as they're making it. There's hardly an evergreen conifer native to North America that won't suck up 20F or so for two or three days, even in a pot, just by putting it on the ground with a windbreak; and most non-native similar species are just as hardy. There's no need for panic, and little need for worry. Your trees will be alright.

I get some folks rarely experience these temps in their area, so I understand it being a new concern for them. They've never had to consider it before, or maybe many of their trees are semi tropical and do require additional protection. That's cool. Do what you have to.
 
I hear this argument a lot. I always go back to Michael Hagedorn’s Bonsai Heresy, chapter 13. Here, he presents an argument backed by a university research study (albeit unpublished) and the practices of one the largest nurseries in the country that hardiness in the natural environment is not as closely coupled to hardiness as one might expect. Hardiness zones are only based on “top kill” temperatures, as the earth insulates roots enough for root kill to not be a primary factor in viability. A plants ability to survive in certain ABOVE ground conditions do not necessarily imply it’s ability to survive if the conditions below the soil line are at a similar level.

And all this is just a discussion of our plants surviving, but I would hope the goal is not just basic survival but thriving. I follow what experts who make their livelihoods on plants do, as for them its do or die—I am yet to hear a professional simply dismiss winter protection as something to relax about.

I do understand what you’re saying in terms of causing harm trying to do good. I think the key is to make a plan based on your area and the experiences and successes of others, stick to the plan, and then relax.

…unless you get early leaf out, then figure out something quick.

edited to add: me and @Kievnstavick are on the same page (literally in this case!) as i see you posted the chart from that book above!
Read that chapter yesterday and I will do what I can to keep my potted trees safe from the sub-zero weather while I can...
 
What is preferable, completely covered in snow (have about 30" in my yard right now) or in a garage that I guess will get to about 20°F.

Outside temps will be 3-10°F for about 5 days straight. Have several JMs that I'm mostly concerned with, others are all natives to my area and cold hardy to zone 3 or so, so not really concerned about them staying outside.
 
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