Going to Bonsai Art School, who wants to come?

[A Random User]

The problem with a bonsai school of Art, so to speak, is determining who is going to run it, teach it, or control it? The Bonsai World in America today, near as I can tell, is pretty much driven or dominated by a few individuals. Not all of them get along very well and can be kind of territorial and clannish. To challenge what some of them say is to invite attack from their students in an organized manner. It's kind of like what is presented in the Karate Kidd movies portraying the dynamics between competing schools of Karate, each trying to chop the other into nonexistence. A bonsai version of a gang war.

I am not trying to discourage the effort just informing you of the as yet unseen obstacle.

I understand and agree... I am not trying to challenge any one's views, just establishing my own. Yet, at the same time one can hopefully have a foundation to base these views upon.

I will give you an example... I have on numerous times heard Ryan Neil discuss in his videos how he is seeking to design within his tree a sense of conflict, a juxtaposition. .. to add more interest.

What does he mean by this? Would not folks be interested in knowing and understanding where he is going with this? What does this juxtaposition mean?

This is one of the basic fundamentals of the Art of Storytelling... to understand it, means that we now need to leave the world of Bonsai behind, and instead dwell into the world of writing and composing a story. Would it not then be better to look into history at things like plays, books and even movies? Seeing that storytelling is the core of what these types of art are based upon. If one learns what makes this type of art great, and can find a way to transfer it to bonsai, as Ryan is trying to do, think of the world's perhaps it could open up when designing a tree, and the perspective of Storytelling within that tree.

One can still have their views, but I think thousands of years of these types of arts, have dictated, a path forward. Just as the same amount perhaps have done with bonsai... however, with all art whether bonsai or not, there is the same underlying principals that they all seek... and that is to convey human interest, to make the work feel alive.

If the goal of bonsai is to make a tree that folks can relate too and understand... what is it that gives it these principles. If one is trying to convey depth or a sense of perspective within their landscape plantings, as so far folks have posted... would it not be nice to separate oneself from bonsai for a moment and study how perspective works and how it helps to establish depth.

So, I am not questioning anyone's views, just more trying to go back to the roots of what these elements are. What is depth?

 

[Vance Wood]

Good I hope you are able to realize your goal.

 

[A Random User]

Good I hope you are able to realize your goal.

Let me ask you a serious question. And I am not trying to be funny...
Do you feel personally that it would be nice to perhaps better understand things like perspective and depth, composition, mass and form, shape- both positive space and negative space, tonal value, etc. when designing a tree? Do you think that an individual and their work could benefit from it?
If the answer is no... I will not be offended, promise!

 

[0soyoung]

... waiting ...

 

[Alain]

Man... tuff crowd!

Yes, the idea was to start getting some threads going regarding different basic fundamentals of art in the hopes that we might be able to examine how they could be used in bonsai.

It is my personal feeling that when one is a student of any other type of Art, these fundamentals are taught in order to better understand as well as create the Art. There are whole curriculums based around them at major institutions, yet when it comes to Bonsai... other than some basics, and some horticulture, we have zip.

I think their could be a better way of learning... So, much so, that in fact I am actually considering writing a book upon the subject, in the hopes that perhaps their might be a more generalized approach to doing bonsai.

My own personal observation regarding how bonsai is often taught is to learn the basics, and then do the art. Often views of how to go about doing the art vary on so many levels from instructor to instructor... and even more often, these instructors will teach that this is how one should go about doing the process in order to make the good art... yet I feel their teachings have more to do with personal opinion, then actual foundations of what makes art good.

Would it not be nice to have more of a universal guideline to what is the requirements of establishing good art than a personal feeling?

In the rest of the Art world... these guidelines have been followed and understood and are universally excepted... one can look at a sculpture, a painting, a drawing and can go through a list of the basic fundamentals of art that I wish to discuss and write the book about, and see how an artist viewed or used them to their advantage... and we can critique them on these fundamentals... in Bonsai however... we have, well that's a cool tree. Ask one why? And you will get fifty different answers... none of them based much upon principals one can learn from.

So, it's coming, Lol!
Rome was not built in a day, and I am sure when the holidays came, it took even longer!

Wow, that's absolutely not what I had in mind when I signed-up for the class
I'm pretty sure I'll end-up in this classroom like I did in all the one I visited, and that's a lot, in the back, close to the heater, most certainly the fingers in the nose while watching the seagulls by the windows.

See, my art doesn't seems to have rules, by he kinda of work since 51 years anyway!

 

[Vance Wood]

Let me ask you a serious question. And I am not trying to be funny...
Do you feel personally that it would be nice to perhaps better understand things like perspective and depth, composition, mass and form, shape- both positive space and negative space, tonal value, etc. when designing a tree? Do you think that an individual and their work could benefit from it?
If the answer is no... I will not be offended, promise!

In a word Yes. Art is one of those things that either you have it or you don't have it. Then there are degrees between from genius to total incompetent. There are very few of both extremes, art seems to be one thing that defines the human species. The more education in a particular endeavor tends to make the execution of that endeavor better. Luck is the fruit of the trained mind.

 

[Alain]

In a word Yes. Art is one of those things that either you have it or you don't have it. Then there are degrees between from genius to total incompetent. There are very few of both extremes, art seems to be one thing that defines the human species. The more education in a particular endeavor tends to make the execution of that endeavor better. Luck is the fruit of the trained mind.

I'm more in the Ratatouille way of thinking (the Disney cartoon): art, everyone has it. Everything else is just a medium and the will to express it.
And in fact if one follows this 'art' he has inside one will soon realize that he did follow all the rules

 

[Anthony]

Art in Bonsai is difficult as the tree, unlike a finished oil painting or sculpture, continues to grow.
So it looks good /exceptional for x months / years or days and then it moves on.

I am not even sure that Bonsai was ever meant to be Art, as the West understands it, more a hobby to help the mind create in the traditional arts [ Painting, sculpture or for the Chinese - Calligraphy ] like scholar stones were used.

The act of doing, may be more important than that of producing a finished tree.

Yes, you can use some of the techniques used say in Landscape painting, but..............................

Note the problem Sorce had with that large central tree, and the concept of depth within short space.

Please be aware that the Japanese are not above $$$$ and hype, it was reported on IBC back some years that the Wabi/sabi bit was just folk with little and imagining more.
No great philosophy, just fooling yourself that you are not poor.
The article was a discussion by Japanese Architects in the 60's.

Sometimes it is just HYPE for selling trees.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Vance Wood]

In the era of the Samurai and Shoguns bonsai came to prominence. It was a practice of the Samurai along with calligraphy, and music. The fact in the end does remain. Only the upper class were even allowed to have them, though the lower class took care of them.

 

[sorce]

What is depth?

Depth of soul = Depth of thought.

Depth of thought = Depth of determination.

Depth of determination = Depth of understanding.

Depth of understanding = A deep answer to the question "What Is Depth?".

Or, just a longer back branch, right back to horticulture.

If one hasn't gone and seen Judy's Trident with an identity Crisis......do so.
It is a prime example of how "the rules" are making "the art" a very simple endeavor.

@JudyB if you could put a 1-10 figure on how much sound design skills got transfered to your bonsai thoughts....what would it be?

Anyone else with an art transfer skill they care to share?

Sorce

 

[JoeR]

I have always thought that everyone is equally artistic.


The only difference is what artistic medium we are good at/specialize in.


For example, I am no good at painting. If painting was the only art form I tried, I would think I am not artistic and give up, right?


On the other hand, I consider myself talented with three dimensional arts like sculpture, origami, bonsai, etc. What if I never tried any of those?


Those that claim they are not artistic either have never really pursued art or have never found 'their' medium.


I tried pen and ink for the first time a few months ago. I really like it, but how would I know if I like it, or if I am good at it, without trying it first?


Take my sister for instance. She always talks about how non-artsy she is.

But She has never even tried painting. Or sculpture. Or any instruments.

But I know she would be good at some art form, even if its something unconventional.

 

[crust]

Man... tuff crowd!

Yes, the idea was to start getting some threads going regarding different basic fundamentals of art in the hopes that we might be able to examine how they could be used in bonsai.

It is my personal feeling that when one is a student of any other type of Art, these fundamentals are taught in order to better understand as well as create the Art. There are whole curriculums based around them at major institutions, yet when it comes to Bonsai... other than some basics, and some horticulture, we have zip.

I think their could be a better way of learning... So, much so, that in fact I am actually considering writing a book upon the subject, in the hopes that perhaps their might be a more generalized approach to doing bonsai.

My own personal observation regarding how bonsai is often taught is to learn the basics, and then do the art. Often views of how to go about doing the art vary on so many levels from instructor to instructor... and even more often, these instructors will teach that this is how one should go about doing the process in order to make the good art... yet I feel their teachings have more to do with personal opinion, then actual foundations of what makes art good.

Would it not be nice to have more of a universal guideline to what is the requirements of establishing good art than a personal feeling?

In the rest of the Art world... these guidelines have been followed and understood and are universally excepted... one can look at a sculpture, a painting, a drawing and can go through a list of the basic fundamentals of art that I wish to discuss and write the book about, and see how an artist viewed or used them to their advantage... and we can critique them on these fundamentals... in Bonsai however... we have, well that's a cool tree. Ask one why? And you will get fifty different answers... none of them based much upon principals one can learn from.

So, it's coming, Lol!
Rome was not built in a day, and I am sure when the holidays came, it took even longer!

What you seem to proposing is "art school". The study of artistic principles of design. This, of course, is nothing new and tomes and tomes are written about this and it translates easily to most any art--sometime even to non-visual arts, like even story telling. But then you know this--and everybody else does. The problem I have with studying art is the same problem I have with studying math: I know it is important and applicable but I usually forget all but the basics and end up figuring out things intuitively.
Interestingly, the French bonzo boys have really dabbled in this stuff differently. They have actually codified the teaching of bonsai within French Federation of Bonsai. There are tested level you must reach (Levels 1-3) to be able to "coach" --this is a whole system, while still quite Japanified, that is rigorous and unique. These are serious folks and I am sure that nothing like this could exist in the US due to capitalistic and egotistic forces.

 

[Anthony]

If you can write, you can draw.
It is however the mind that decides between craft or ART.
What have you in the imagination [ things already seen and mixed in the mind ], experienced ............................

The French like the Italians have a strong history of Fine Art, as the Greeks do for Fine Sculpture.
What do the Americas have as their strength/s?

Remember the works of the Mayans, Aztecs and Incas.
How would they have handled Bonsai?
Good Day
Anthony

* Passed onto me ----------- What's the difference between Art and Craft ------------------- $$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[coh]

I always get a kick out of the "I can't draw a straight line" crowd. I firmly believe that anyone can learn to draw or paint reasonably well, if they are motivated and work at it. Learn some basic rules of composition, learn how to manipulate the medium (whether it be paint, pencil, whatever), and off you go. Similarly with bonsai...learn the basic forms as well as some basic art principles (composition, balance...), learn the horticulture, learn how to physically manipulate trees (wiring, pruning, etc) and anyone can produce something that at least resembles what most would call "bonsai".

But...the next step is what differentiates the masters from most of us, and the question is how to take that next step...from producing (crafting?) a reasonable painting or basic bonsai, to producing something that stops others in their tracks, takes their breath away, makes them feel something. Can one learn to do that, or is it something that only resides in certain individuals? Again, I believe that we all have that ability to some degree, so how does one develop it or teach it...

Part of the issue is that something that moves me may not move anyone else, and that has to do with the individuality of our experiences. So one could conceivably produce a bonsai, post it here and no one will like it or even comment on it. Does that mean it is a failure? Or just that the right person or people haven't see it?

I think it was last winter that we started down a similar road, where we were discussing the golden mean, fibonacci ratios...very interesting stuff but when you really start looking at trees or paintings, it quickly becomes very complex.

I'll be paying attention to this discussion as it develops.

Chris

 

[Anthony]

Ha ha, K's friend L.Jackson [ sculptress ] has it as, you should first be an interesting person.

To much Golden Mean leads to mechanical and uninteresting work.

How much Art does Bonsai really have in it ?

Some very basic sculpture to the front, very rarely in the round, and treatment of masses, negative space on mostly the exterior, and flowers/fruit at times for decoration,
but nothing close to an oil painting at the Renaissance or Baroque level.
[ I can't do Art, but had lots of art appreciation classes at The National Gallery, London over the years ]

Good Day
Anthony

 

[jomawa]

What is depth?

Thanks for asking that. I'm having a difficult time looking at a two dimensional photo and trying to imagine/determine the depth of the third dimension of the bonsai in the photo, (isn't it so noticeably different looking at the real and not a photo?) .

Looking at the picture of the bonsai forest (with rock) on the dark table, I see the "yellow" triangle, baseline is front of table, triangle sides are left and right edges of trees without a distinct focal point.

Artistically with bonsai, do you want a "soft" focal point (one that doesn't permenantly stop eye movement), so one's eye ultimately is pulled/allowed to move throughout the whole bonsai, and possibly pulled back to a focal point periodically, but easily leaves again to peruse and evaluate every intrinsic detail?

 

[Cadillactaste]

I think it depends on the one giving the lesson...how many years of experience that one has...and if one likes their style and the topic at hand. When I already have a bonsai school I go to...on FB that I find is very informative. And understand the way things are put together as a whole. I like it there...because it's not a forum sort of atmosphere but...one for learning. You don't just post random things...rabbit holes are frowned upon. No one clutters the school's wall. There is a designated area for chit chat. And the lessons are easy found and one can refer back to. One might ask a question or comment on lesson in that area, but keeping the topic at hand the focus...rabbit holes are frustrating in a school lesson.

I think for a newbie...it maybe great. But...as with many I have heard of frustration from taking on to many instructors with different outlooks. I also thought...the reference section was for such tutorials which I do like its a matter of fact and there to see without a bunch of clutter unless one chooses to go into the discussion of it. for example I highly regard @grouper52 and his tutorials he has shared. I admire his trees...and his trees line up with my own desires of what I want in a finished tree. As for another school I'm not sure I would just visit it unless it was a topic I was interested in. Because I have to a degree feel that I grasp many aspects that one would teach. One thing I wasn't grasping I was referred to Colin Lewis's wiring technique video. That is a step up from an online school in my opinion. It's like sitting in on a class. Very informative and I walked away understanding what I did wrong. Why my wire jobs didn't hold like I though it should.

But...I think a forum based school with commentary would be confusing...important facts lost in commentary. Unless the school was ran like the resource area. I would not wish to wade through ones thoughts...to find a lesson. But that's just me. If you feel you can share with others something they can take to their vault...go for it. But, unless it's ran like the resources...I would be less opt to visit. I would like to be able to read a lesson without it getting lost. Which is what I like about the resource area.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I understand and agree... I am not trying to challenge any one's views, just establishing my own. Yet, at the same time one can hopefully have a foundation to base these views upon.

I will give you an example... I have on numerous times heard Ryan Neil discuss in his videos how he is seeking to design within his tree a sense of conflict, a juxtaposition. .. to add more interest.

What does he mean by this? Would not folks be interested in knowing and understanding where he is going with this? What does this juxtaposition mean?

This is one of the basic fundamentals of the Art of Storytelling... to understand it, means that we now need to leave the world of Bonsai behind, and instead dwell into the world of writing and composing a story. Would it not then be better to look into history at things like plays, books and even movies? Seeing that storytelling is the core of what these types of art are based upon. If one learns what makes this type of art great, and can find a way to transfer it to bonsai, as Ryan is trying to do, think of the world's perhaps it could open up when designing a tree, and the perspective of Storytelling within that tree.

One can still have their views, but I think thousands of years of these types of arts, have dictated, a path forward. Just as the same amount perhaps have done with bonsai... however, with all art whether bonsai or not, there is the same underlying principals that they all seek... and that is to convey human interest, to make the work feel alive.

If the goal of bonsai is to make a tree that folks can relate too and understand... what is it that gives it these principles. If one is trying to convey depth or a sense of perspective within their landscape plantings, as so far folks have posted... would it not be nice to separate oneself from bonsai for a moment and study how perspective works and how it helps to establish depth.

So, I am not questioning anyone's views, just more trying to go back to the roots of what these elements are. What is depth?

I get what your saying...but, as a book worm. I find this book to be highly enlightening...but others may not be into books and choose to learn something on a forum. Myself I wouldn't look choose such a topic to learn about when I feel I have it well put in my hands already. It's an amazing book. One I think everyone should have in their library. I think though...newbies could benefit from any resource offered though. Just because it's not for me...doesn't mean it wouldn't be helpful.
http://www.absbonsai.org/store/principles-bonsai-design

 

[coh]

To much Golden Mean leads to mechanical and uninteresting work.

Of course!

And one of the interesting things that comes out of analyzing bonsai or paintings using those kinds of techniques...is that usually you can find golden mean type ratios all over the place, but it depends on how you draw your lines. And that can be very subjective. I think that's where the original discussion last year broke down.

I've seen some of those "armature analysis" of famous paintings (google the term if interested), where they break up the space into multiple rectangles, draw lines from one corner to the next...if you do that enough, you can find that some of the features in the painting line up with various lines. But did the artist plan it to that level of detail, is that something someone can really make use of when planning a painting or bonsai...I really don't know.

 

[sorce]

I think those things can be found in good art.

But can't be applied to art...

It just doesn't work that way.

The Japanese don't fret over Fibbanoce.

We will never achieve anything if we are!

Sorce