Fair price to lease a space for a single field grown tree?

[Stillwater]

We had a few clients fly in a week or so ago to pick up some trees we got for them. During their visit we gave them a tour of the lot we are building our new nursery on and got on the discussion of our growing fields. Something I had never thought of before as we mainly deal in trees already in pots was the fact that a lot of bonsai collectors from beginner up to the guys with expensive collections don't have their own ground if they want to put a tree in it to thicken it up in a hurry. One of our clients from NYC asked me while we were walking the future fields site "How much would you charge me per year if I sent you a rooted cutting of ______(insert species here)_____________ to have it grown out in your field"? I didn't have an answer. My first thought was why not just buy a tree we already grew out but then the client said "I have a few trees I would like clones of, but don't have the ground to do it in" which kind of made it make sense to me.

So the question is, what do you think would be a fair price if we started offering such a service?

Our cost per tree site (4 foot x 4 foot) per year to maintain is about $60 per year when you calculate in the slate tile we bury under the mound, irrigation, fertilizer, labor for maintenance such as weed picking, inspecting each tree every 5 weeks for health, ect. Slightly higher than that if we do any trunk contorting on the tree early on to get it gnarly from the start or need to cover the tree over winter for frost protection. So it would have to be at least as much as our cost. I dont anticipate we would be doing this for people very often as conceptually it wouldn't be a useful service to the bulk of people, but for the rarest of occasions like for the client that just asked us I would like to know what you all think would be fair.

@sorce Your input would be appreciated here as well.

 

[rockm]

We had a few clients fly in a week or so ago to pick up some trees we got for them. During their visit we gave them a tour of the lot we are building our new nursery on and got on the discussion of our growing fields. Something I had never thought of before as we mainly deal in trees already in pots was the fact that a lot of bonsai collectors from beginner up to the guys with expensive collections don't have their own ground if they want to put a tree in it to thicken it up in a hurry. One of our clients from NYC asked me while we were walking the future fields site "How much would you charge me per year if I sent you a rooted cutting of ______(insert species here)_____________ to have it grown out in your field"? I didn't have an answer. My first thought was why not just buy a tree we already grew out but then the client said "I have a few trees I would like clones of, but don't have the ground to do it in" which kind of made it make sense to me.

So the question is, what do you think would be a fair price if we started offering such a service?

Our cost per tree site (4 foot x 4 foot) per year to maintain is about $60 per year when you calculate in the slate tile we bury under the mound, irrigation, fertilizer, labor for maintenance such as weed picking, inspecting each tree every 5 weeks for health, ect. Slightly higher than that if we do any trunk contorting on the tree early on to get it gnarly from the start or need to cover the tree over winter for frost protection. So it would have to be at least as much as our cost. I dont anticipate we would be doing this for people very often as conceptually it wouldn't be a useful service to the bulk of people, but for the rarest of occasions like for the client that just asked us I would like to know what you all think would be fair.

@sorce Your input would be appreciated here as well.

I would think this would be a HUGE hassle for everyone involved.

Growing out a $10 seedling into a 10 year old tree using a rented space in the ground is going to wind up costing the subscriber a lot more than the resulting tree is going to be worth. Easier and more efficient to simply grow what those people are asking to plant in your growing beds. That would lower costs for them I'd think. Also if their tree dies as a result of some disease or inadvertent damage, what are your liabilities--replace what was lost--a grown out tree? or replace the original seedling

 

[Stillwater]

I would think this would be a HUGE hassle for everyone involved.

Growing out a $10 seedling into a 10 year old tree using a rented space in the ground is going to wind up costing the subscriber a lot more than the resulting tree is going to be worth. Easier and more efficient to simply grow what those people are asking to plant in your growing beds. That would lower costs for them I'd think. Also if their tree dies as a result of some disease or inadvertent damage, what are your liabilities--replace what was lost--a grown out tree? or replace the original seedling

I agree if the situation were just any tree. What the client, and now some of his buddies were asking about was because they had a specific tree, not just a species, but a cutting from a particular tree whose genetics they wanted to clone. The client who first asked lives in the concrete jungle of Manhattan. No place to turn a cutting or two from his prized Cork Bark Chinese Elm into a mature tree quickly.

You are absolutely right that in generic terms it would not be practicle in any sense to conceptually pre-pay for a piece of field grown material by the year. But for a guy who had a very specific tree, right down to the DNA that he wanted to replicate, and had no means of doing it himself, they would have to find someone / someplace to do it for them.

The intent is not to start offering this as a service from a business standpoint it would be more hassle than it is worth, It would be more less we had a client who inquired, and as they are one of our better clients we would like to oblige. We just don't know what would be fair to charge.

 

[rockm]

I agree if the situation were just any tree. What the client, and now some of his buddies were asking about was because they had a specific tree, not just a species, but a cutting from a particular tree whose genetics they wanted to clone. The client who first asked lives in the concrete jungle of Manhattan. No place to turn a cutting or two from his prized Cork Bark Chinese Elm into a mature tree quickly.

You are absolutely right that in generic terms it would not be practicle in any sense to conceptually pre-pay for a piece of field grown material by the year. But for a guy who had a very specific tree, right down to the DNA that he wanted to replicate, and had no means of doing it himself, they would have to find someone / someplace to do it for them.

The intent is not to start offering this as a service from a business standpoint it would be more hassle than it is worth, It would be more less we had a client who inquired, and as they are one of our better clients we would like to oblige. We just don't know what would be fair to charge.

If you're going to do all the heavy lifting with planting over slate, irrigation, weeding, possibly pruning for effect? I'd say $60 a month would be reasonable. This is probably like simple specimen boarding--I pay $40/month from Nov. to March to store one of my best trees in a cold greenhouse at a bonsai nursery. They water, monitor health, heat the greenhouse to keep it above slightly above or at freezing. They have also done some extensive redesign on some aspects of the tree-but I didn't have to pay for that work, since I was there and helped with the work...

 

[sorce]

In the Name of the Art.
Taking into account the unknown.
(And my recent $100 pot paid for months after shipping just as agreed)
#bonsaipeopleareawesome

How Can you say No to Something that you could safely turn into 100 excellent $50 starts?

How could you say Yes to a Wisteria?

Case by Case in every Scenario.

But you must take into account a Firm Space Delegated to this. One acre perhaps. And "stack rank" it once full. Or realize profitability and extend the space.

A firm space that must be left empty no matter the profitability, for the day you find 100 free stumps that in 2 years may net 2 thousand dollars each. (Labor costs)

What of many things can be maintained above empty space in these areas, that will not lose value if mindlessly thrown to the next open nook? (Leo, mobile chicken coops? )

What simple preperations can safely be made to next areas, slowly during down time, to make less labor when the 100 stumps come in? Holes dug, Soil prep, ...

Can these dug holes be dangerous for human? Or provide a safe haven for wintering trees in shallow pots?

In the Name of efficiency.
A Great Story I read somewhere. (Nutshell)

Henry Ford hires a Man to walk his plant and point out inefficiencies, after a complete tour the man goes to Henry Ford and reports all is well, except for one man who seems to just sit around with his feet up all day. Henry says ..oh that is ok, that is the man I pay to make sure everything is Running efficiently.

Lessons?

Henry is Thrice Efficient.
When you are efficient, you may relax.
If you think you are efficient, check again.

Goals?

Relax with your feet up.

Sorce

 

[R3x]

Not giving you any advise directly but few considerations come to my mind:

• what if the tree dies for whatever reason?
• you just grow it anyway it wants or you're somehow responsible for pruning / root management / shaping / ... it?
• what if the tree's growth does not meet customer's expectations?

It generally comes to a question: what does the customer expect to get after _insert_number_here_ years and what are your responsibilities in achieving that goal?

 

[sorce]

Oh yes....

Is the Business side of Bonsai moving towards insurance, lawsuits, and all that shit....absolutely....

Do not make a contract like the Woman on Hotel Nightmares with Ramsey in the Desert.

Make contracts that are THE INTRODUCTIONS TO THIS NEW THING...
Appropriately.

As to not scare away. But safely for all involved protect, against our only enemy, which is the unknown, not each other.

BC bonsai here keeps a field in PAW PaW Il, but I dont know the structure. There IS a more profitble way. I know that. More profitable AND capable of producing better , cheaper stock for the client.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

In all safe Bonsai practices reality...

You only need allow them access a couple times a year to style. How does their access effect you personally?

Monthly photo updates can add value.

What of the difference in "freedom to just grow" are different?
Maples need more quick care than juniper.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

When I first started overwintering my tree at the bonsai nursery 15 or 16 years ago, the owners told me flat out that they would not accept liability for the tree if it croaked in their greenhouse. They said there are so many variables (not the least of which was how I cared for the tree before it was stored in their facility) with trees assigning blame for a death of one was extremely hard to do--unless, of course it was obvious--greenhouse roof failure, fire, etc. The message was "it's at your risk." I didn't mind that since I knew they were excellent at caring for trees and knew what they were doing...

 

[Solaris]

It'd cost you about $60 a year, right?
I'd probably charge the guy about $120/year, plus however much I'm losing with the opportunity cost of putting that guy's tree there instead of one that I could turn around and sell.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Shaking my head at the direction placed on cloaning...

 

[Cadillactaste]

No place to turn a cutting or two from his prized Cork Bark Chinese Elm into a mature tree quickly.

You are absolutely right that in generic terms it would not be practicle in any sense to conceptually pre-pay for a piece of field grown material by the year. But for a guy who had a very specific tree, right down to the DNA that he wanted to replicate, and had no means of doing it himself, they would have to find someone / someplace to do it for them.

The intent is not to start offering this as a service from a business standpoint it would be more hassle than it is worth, It would be more less we had a client who inquired, and as they are one of our better clients we would like to oblige. We just don't know what would be fair to charge.

Cloning a species of tree...a Cork Barked Chinese Elm...is a cork barked chinese elm...if it's received prizes then those attributes are from ones hand styling it...is how it got there.

I am sorry...but I call a BS. It isn't a pet with a pedigree line one is attempting to clone. (Which I find rediculous to begin with) But a plant...that can be sold and styled and the hand that tends it is the ones hands at work. No cutting in ground becomes a masterpiece by ground growing alone.

You lost me...and this thread is a mockery of what we do.

Apparently ones honestly don't grasp bonsai
If a cutting is grown and built. Won't mean a hill of beans to say it one day will be a prized tree.

Shaking my head at this BS ...

@rockm was bang on in his first post.

 

[Solaris]

I am sorry...but I call a BS. It isn't a pet with a pedigree line one is attempting to clone. (Which I find rediculous to begin with) But a plant...that can be sold and styled and the hand that tends it is the ones hands at work. No cutting in ground becomes a masterpiece by ground growing alone.

You lost me...and this thread is a mockery of what we do.

Apparently ones honestly don't grasp bonsai
If a cutting is grown and built. Won't mean a hill of beans to say it one day will be a prized tree.

Shaking my head at this BS ...

@rockm was bang on in his first post.

Perhaps the tree holds some sentimental value to the customer. Not everyone is motivated purely by financial reasons, even to the point of being silly about their sentimentality.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Perhaps the tree holds some sentimental value to the customer. Not everyone is motivated purely by financial reasons, even to the point of being silly about their sentimentality.

But if the tree is healthy...why!?! They have the mother tree. No?

Lets talk sentiment...I planted a tree for my son when he was born. I learned here that it has a lifespan that it has exceeded. A cutting would have the same lifespan. So futile...so I can grasp that...but Bonsai...we all know a world class tree is years in the making. You can plant several trees in a growing grounds...and they all won't have the same caliper in ten years...some will stand out among them. Even being the same species. Take for example Greg's seed contest...why are ones planting so many seeds? To find the diamond in among them.

I would think anyone with real time under their belt in the hobby...would seek out the best materials...than sink $$$ into a hole. For a "cloned" tree...honestly...up until this thread I never seen a cutting for cloning purposes. ? But just a way to propagate more material.

 

[sorce]

Henry Ford hires a Man to walk his plant and point out inefficiencies, after a complete tour the man goes to Henry Ford and reports all is well, except for one man who seems to just sit around with his feet up all day. Henry says ..oh that is ok, that is the man I pay to make sure everything is Running efficiently.

I forgot the most important lesson to this.

Efficiency is so profitable, paying 2 men to assure it becomes possible.

I must admit I didn't read most of the 4x4 $60 ....
I have to question the ABSOLUTE VALIDITY of these numbers, and wether or not these costs can be lessened since...
While not likely, a completely ignored patch of land has the potential to produce quite a few nice trunks.
That $60 is "floating" to me.
As is any profits due to unknowns.

The idea is to find and balance what trees "float" in what."floating" ground.

6 wild elms in that space Completely unattended "floats" more profitable than 2 high mantainence azalea.

Typical "Farmers almanac" square foot costs kinda fly out the window with this situation. I don't know what paper it is written on, but you do not need to spend so much per square ft if you do not wish to.

Simply keeping a bonsai business model "floating" according to the Rule of "it depends" seems the most logical way to remain balanced. Human and Books.

Seems like you are waiting for stars to align, until you realize you have complete control of the stars!
This is where profitability resides.

My Pottery business...

I post all my pots at auction with free shipping.
When one sets his own starting point, it is only logical to build shipping into the cost.
This way the customer has no unknown costs, making a placed bid, much easier to place, as it is the total.
I do not understand leaving an unknown on the table, seems quite lazy and foolish on the sellers part. Bad business practice.
If my budget is $60, how will I know if I can bid $52 without knowing shipping?
They could PM sure, but then both parties time is wasted, since it could have been prevented.

Anyway. With my time and Family time considered.

My thing is in the black and projecting only exponential profitably as my skills improve.

And I shipped mad free pots!

My system is in the black at about 20-30% of its potential.

If only I could find the peace For a proper pursuit.

Still in My Water.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

materials...than sink $$$ into a hole. For a "cloned" tree...honestly...up until this thread I never seen a cutting for cloning purposes. ? But just a way to propagate more material.

Cloned is just stoner talk (cannabis industry) term for Propogating.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

But if the tree is healthy...why!?! They have the mother tree. No?

Lets talk sentiment...I planted a tree for my son when he was born. I learned here that it has a lifespan that it has exceeded. A cutting would have the same lifespan. So futile...so I can grasp that...but Bonsai...we all know a world class tree is years in the making. You can plant several trees in a growing grounds...and they all won't have the same caliper in ten years...some will stand out among them. Even being the same species. Take for example Greg's seed contest...why are ones planting so many seeds? To find the diamond in among them.

I would think anyone with real time under their belt in the hobby...would seek out the best materials...than sink $$$ into a hole. For a "cloned" tree...honestly...up until this thread I never seen a cutting for cloning purposes. ? But just a way to propagate more material.

This doesn't seem to be about parting a fool from his money. That ship has apparently sailed. It's about what to charge said, err, bonsai-ist for the space.

 

[Soldano666]

Sounds like a lot of hoops and potential hassle, id offer to take the cuttings, plant them out and offer them a tree at a discounted rate once they've reached maturity, in the mean while you now have a handful of those trees for your use or resale.

 

[Cadillactaste]

This doesn't seem to be about parting a fool from his money. That ship has apparently sailed. It's about what to charge said, err, bonsai-ist for the space.

I can only invision a young in the hobby bonsai-ist who...has a second hobby from the definition Sorce offered at cloning.

Been in the hobby 5 years...and this thread has me shaking my head...say...5 years from now...I wonder what these folks will be up to. I wonder...will they calculate what went into growing their little clone? Verses buying good stock?

 

[Stillwater]

Cloning a species of tree...a Cork Barked Chinese Elm...is a cork barked chinese elm...if it's received prizes then those attributes are from ones hand styling it...is how it got there.

I am sorry...but I call a BS. It isn't a pet with a pedigree line one is attempting to clone. (Which I find rediculous to begin with) But a plant...that can be sold and styled and the hand that tends it is the ones hands at work. No cutting in ground becomes a masterpiece by ground growing alone.

You lost me...and this thread is a mockery of what we do.

Apparently ones honestly don't grasp bonsai
If a cutting is grown and built. Won't mean a hill of beans to say it one day will be a prized tree.

Shaking my head at this BS ...

@rockm was bang on in his first post.

Ah, I new it was only a matter of time. But I'm game.

First, it's spelled Ridiculous...... there is no "e"

Second, a mockery? In Van Goghs time he was considered insane and his work disillusion but look at his work now. I think what we have here is delusions of grandeur. Your entitled to your opinion just like everyone else but you cannot summarize bonsai in a whole by using the word "we" as every artist has a different approach. Lumping all bonsai artists together and further including them with the likes of you as if your approach is the only approach and further by using the word "we" as if they are all the same is where I call B.S.

Lastly, you speak as if you have tons of experience in bonsai. Up until your last reply in the long line of replies you may have almost had me convinced.

But if the tree is healthy...why!?! They have the mother tree. No?

For a "cloned" tree...honestly...up until this thread I never seen a cutting for cloning purposes. ? But just a way to propagate more material.

If you have never heard of cloning a tree for its traits, and further don't understand the horticultural science behind it or why it is done, then I feel you have a ton more to learn.

Some trees posses specific unique characters and traits, in this example a cork bark Chinese elm that has a very unique micro fine scale like cork bark. The probability of getting another tree from seed or otherwise to produce this same trait is one in millions. It's DNA. The only way to get an exact genetic match is by starting with the same genetic material.

If you cannot understand how an artist could look at a tree and its unique traits, the things that are predisposed genetically to the tree by its very DNA and want to have a fresh canvas with those traits to work with, then you have no concept of artistic creativity at all and further no understanding of horticulture if you cannot grasp that the only way to get those exact traits is by cloning the original.

Are you aware that the bulk of true Itoigawa junipers you find in the USA all come from less than 30 pieces of parent material and of that, the biggest share come from a single tree imported by John Naka decades ago. The reason Mr. Naka's tree was cloned so many times was not because people wanted more Itoigawas, It was because the particular specimen he had held some very unique traits in the super lime green foliage, it's resistance to producing juvenile foliage, and the super compact structure of its scales. In the mid 90's i saw single rooted cuttings of that tree selling for $30 each. It may not seem like a lot of money now, but that would be the equivalent of paying $50 for a cutting now.

Next time, before you bring this kind of arrogance and delusional grandeur to a thread I started and litter it with rhetoric and garbage do some homework. This post was to gauge fair pricing, not debate matters of conjecture and opinion as to why.