Extended season starting trees indoors

[cmeg1]

Do you know the reason for the blue light dwarfing effect?

I do not exactly….was just told of this from a growclass I did and then put it into practice with notable results……..check this Japanese Black Pine seedling cutting.Had a terminal budset on an 1/2” tall plant.
When I first really noticed this.
My teacher noted its use for the vegging stage and said always add some blue type lights like the t5.So I always used 4000k led since a strong blue spectrum.
These experiments and the pine below were done with adding over a30% extra supplimentation of blue with some pure blue leds……….maybe overkill,but definately a different and more pronounced effect.Noticably thicker leaves and sheathes too!!!

 

[cmeg1]

Hi Cmeg1,

Can you share the link for entrapment self pruning fabric? Thank you!

Yes ,ROOTPOUCH!!!

Grow Bags & Plant Pouches - Greenhouse Megastore

Add flexibility to your greenhouse and garden setup with our selection of polyethylene grow bags, fabric pots, hanging pouches and other portable containers.

www.greenhousemegastore.com

Also check their Homepage link below. for explanation and videos….very informative.

Root Pouch

We manufacture fabric planting containers, made from recycled water bottles and natural fibers. Designed in partnership with professional growers across the world.

rootpouch.com

 

[Maiden69]

Yes ,ROOTPOUCH!!!

Grow Bags & Plant Pouches - Greenhouse Megastore

Add flexibility to your greenhouse and garden setup with our selection of polyethylene grow bags, fabric pots, hanging pouches and other portable containers.

www.greenhousemegastore.com

Also check their Homepage link below. for explanation and videos….very informative.

Root Pouch

We manufacture fabric planting containers, made from recycled water bottles and natural fibers. Designed in partnership with professional growers across the world.

rootpouch.com

To add... If you are buying small quantities, Lowes has the best price, but their stock is limited to certain sizes.

@cmeg1 have you tried the Rootmaker system? This year I planted all my seedlings into their Express 18 Injected-Molded Tray w/ Cells and 1-Gallon Round to start them off before I move them into bags. I placed stainless steel washers right above the roots and plant them deep to girdle and hopefully promote a flared base. This were tridents, bald cypresses and a few gingko trees. Hopefully they will all work as this is the first time trying this. I wanted to layer them as you do, but I don't have the time this year.

 

[Wood]

...have you tried the Rootmaker system? This year I planted all my seedlings into their Express 18 Injected-Molded Tray w/ Cells and 1-Gallon Round to start them off ...

If I recall correctly, that's what Shannon Salyer uses for his propogation trays

 

[Maiden69]

If I recall correctly, that's what Shannon Salyer uses for his propogation trays

I don't know... Dr. Whitcomb has been selling this pots for a long time. I had great success with the bags, but I think for starting tress this pots will be an economical addition, since this pots are re-usable. I will reserve the bags for when the trees make it into the ground

 

[Srt8madness]

Curtis, @cmeg1
Quick question
I'm sprouting my pine seeds that will be seedling cut in perlite. I want to cut ~45 seedling cuttings and put them in grodan cubes. I got 1.5" cubes, but they have a 1/4" hole (arguably for MJ cuttings). This hole is far bigger than the seedling stem diameter, which leads me to wonder how to secure them. Perhaps fill the hole with vermiculite and the put in the cutting? Peat?

 

[cmeg1]

Curtis, @cmeg1
Quick question
I'm sprouting my pine seeds that will be seedling cut in perlite. I want to cut ~45 seedling cuttings and put them in grodan cubes. I got 1.5" cubes, but they have a 1/4" hole (arguably for MJ cuttings). This hole is far bigger than the seedling stem diameter, which leads me to wonder how to secure them. Perhaps fill the hole with vermiculite and the put in the cutting? Peat?

Turn them upside down and make holes with a toothpick.
Should have great success.
For on the cheap just fertilize your pre-cuttings with clonex…a cheap 1:1 ratio fert…rather weak strength………take your cuttings at the end of your light cycle so they are at maximum leaf energy(will root 50% quicker).
And buy a grodan smart tray insert and place in a 10x20 flat with no holes and put a clear dome on it and heat to 85f with a 1/2” of water at all times in the tray.
Do not place the grodan in the tray bottom as they get really funky.


Honestly I would go all out with a cheap seedling heat mat and thermostat ,the tray ,the smart Tray the dome and even a single t5
on top will be plenty.

Look into the super sprouter propagation kit!!!!

USE DIP&GROW @ the 10x strength for a 5 minute dip!!!!

The cubes are awesome and I have rootted in them …..mainly clumps where radial rooting is not so important…… I’m usually anywhere between 90 and 100% success rate so it’s not a terrible big deal I probably could get away with using cubes all the time but my preferred method is grade 2 Perlite with shredded Orchid spahgnum in the top 50% or 1 inch ….the roots are much more aerated and large thicker roots and I can pluck them out and make sure I’m planning a good radial rooted cutting into the stonewool cube.


And in the Perlite method I still set the little mini trays on top of a Grodan smart tray so I can put a half inch of water in the bottom of the flat that way they’re super humidity and you can raise the temperature to 85f as Perlite and the Orchid moss is sterile and will be fine until they root after they root if you’re going to let them in there an extended time you want to turn it down to about 75 to 78f or there will be anearobic bacteria growth.

 

[cmeg1]

Early start for the Burning bush Cuttings

I could not resist…. After 1000 hour chill under my home I am going to force these to an extra three months of growth in the CO2 environment see if I can get a jumpstart with these I’m in love with growing these I also have some seed it looks like one actually germinated early I want to grow these and force them early to get some good trunks on them which is probably gonna take a while they seem a slow growing species, but there’s nothing more attractive than a Burning bush and it’s red leaves even small stature sizes.

I have 100 year old bushes in my backyard so I take about 50 cuttings every season or plant the seeds only if I had good results I have lots and lots of seed stratifying so I’ll see which is the best method.
They roote quite easily from cuttings.

I plant these into 3” blocks after they root in the smaller plugs so they can get strong quickly.
We’ll see how all the extra calcium and amino acids, kelp and even the burst of CO2 at the start of growth will help these in their growing cycles and appearance through the years!!!

THE LAST TWO PICS ARE FROM THE WEB!!!
What they look like with a bit of growth.

 

[Srt8madness]

I have the heat mat, 10x20 tray, a couple 7" domes, and really good grow lights. I sprouted in perlite only, seems I should grab some sphagnum and sprout in that + put seedling cuttings in it. Thanks for the detailed info!!!

 

[cmeg1]

I have the heat mat, 10x20 tray, a couple 7" domes, and really good grow lights. I sprouted in perlite only, seems I should grab some sphagnum and sprout in that + put seedling cuttings in it. Thanks for the detailed info!!!

The benefit of cutting purely in the stone wool blocks from beginning is that you never have to prune them little tiny roots …..that greatly deters the settling phase from a humidity dome to a Tent or veg cycle…… if you touch the roots and have to prune them I’ve seen some just completely die……or take twice as long to settle into growth.

I have best luck when the roots are a quarter inch long and just stick them into a stonewool block without pruning the roots or just rooting in a stonewool block like I did for the clumps when I’m not too concerned about radial roots or what you are planning to do.

I have let them get really long and then pruned them by 50% to plant into stonewool and I actually suffered a lot of losses about 20% losses and it took 50% longer to settle the ones that did survive and stay green.

Out of all these methods the strongest growth I have seen is letting the roots from the Cuttings grow to like 4 inch 5 inch length in the dome with the perlite media and then just sticking the whole blob of roots into a 1 pint size fabric Rootpouch with straight perlite and some grow wool on the top 1/2” …..by far the fastest settling phase …..
Its just the Stonewall is so ,so much more convenient and easier that I will wait the extra 3 weeks to get the same burst of starting growth and weight.

 

[cmeg1]

more cuttings today

I have to wait till’ they are at the perfect pre-cutting stage.Its important not to plant them too closely as they will not get the photosynthesis they deserve.
The pure blue leds really boost their reddiness………instead of the usual reddish color to the stems I notice a much more violet coloring to them….. it’s actually quite important not to let them get too woody …if given the choice between green or slightly woody I would choose green. They root much fuller this way.

And also I literally wait till the 18th hour to bring them out of the tent full of CO2 and into some 4000 K LED propagation lights in the cut room and by the time I get done taking breaks they have received more than a days worth of pure light and they are very energetic and cut-worthy…… if they were to sit overnight without light or even six hours in the night phase and then cut first thing in the morning the leaves would literally be void of photosynthetic energy as it is all sunk to the roots overnight which happens to any plant….. they take 50% longer to root in that condition when taken at the end of a very long light cycle they will root 50% quicker.I’ve tested this with tried and true results literally roots in 11 days instead of roots in 20 days!!!!
Leaves also remain more turgid and lively and durable during the process.

 

[cmeg1]

A typical pre-cutting

The blue lights will get them a bit more active…many will have a nice violet color…and many still will have the reddish color to the stem.

 

[cmeg1]

7 DAY CHECK-UP ON THE SEEDLING CUTTINGS.

Quite impressed.Everything looks good.
So now it’s time for their dunk in some fulvic acid & kelp.When they start to callous like this,if you put a root stimulant it signals them to make more roots!!!
I always use fulvic acid & kelp powders…PURE FORMS, NO NPK AT THIS STAGE!!!

So I just fill a 10x20 tray with a warmed solution of the rooting stimulant…(ro water/fulvic acid/kelp in the usual 5:2 ratio and ph adjusted to 5.7-5.9).
I will actually submerse the little tray in this for about 1-2 hours and really get them in contact.Roots will grow everywhere.

Probably only dunk once and then when they need water just a quick spray from above as the foliar will get roots pushing also.

I need to catch these as soon as roots are 1/2” long so I can plant quickly without any pruning.

And will put into the tent with a high humidity or dome over them so rooting continues another week…..probably just up the humidity in the tent too about 70 or so and they will be fine….and keep lights very low about 200 par.

Exciting…..should get near 100% strike rate……much easier to plan things this way.
Doing all seedling cuttings this season with the JBP.

 

[cmeg1]

ROOTING STIMULANT FOR THE SEEDLING CUTTINGS.

First time I really ever did this for so long.
Sterilized the tray with Hydrogen peroxide and filled with 85f solution of the 5:2 ratio fulvic acid /kelp bio/stimulant.
Doing this a full 4 hours as I read the fulvic acid will transport the kelp directly into the plant cells in as little as 4 hours.
I will see how the rooting is…….the more the better!
Kelp always increases rooting bigtime at this callousing stage.

So just the first application will be like this…then a once a week spray into the media,though will probably have roots by then.

Also after planting I am not opposed to doing a nice dunk of the whole stonewool cube plant and all for a good hour or so while everything is sterile…..

 

[cmeg1]

ALREADY STARTING THE NEXT BATCH OF PRE-CUTTINGS!!!


So I went to the hydroponic store yesterday to buy nearly 300 mini-blocks of stonewool.

After actually purchasing them I decided to browse throught the store like I always do.

Suddenly I arrived at these seedling flats …Then I realized these would be a much better way to keep up the demand / quantity ratio at cmbonsai!!!!

These flats actually fit into a 10x20 daisy tray and have 128 grow cells!!!
All for $2.

I went to another isle and picked up a bag of Grodan grow cubes( The little tiny 1/4 inch growcubes media)……they are actally quite aerated and are great for small size plantings as they will stay moist…..especially in a plastic walled grow cell.

These will be fine and the buyer can pot into whatever they wish to.

I will always set a tray aside with each crop to up-pot into stonewool for Autumn and Winter sales as they can experience the duration of the season and the sun cycles to grow a a proper meristem with a developing Winter bud-set that will actually survive winter and will mature naturally with the season.I don’t wanna’ be selling fresh cuttings after summer as they are weak over winter and will be problematic.

And also the fantastic news with these trays is in five flats I can grow 640 cuttings whereas in five flats of 1 1/2 inch stonewool blocks only 360 cuttings will fit. I can also let the roots grow a little longer in the cutting‘s propagation area and just stick into the little grow-cells and they will have a much healthier start with such long roots.

So like I said at the beginning of this post I’ve already started the pre-cutting seedlings as the first crop are callousing heavily. These seeds have chilled in stratification…. Something I hardly ever do anymore ,so these ones will sprout in a day.
As I start clearing out trays and planting I will be putting fresh cuts right back in there and then for two months the first crop will grow in the tent and after the second crop roots they’ll spend another month or so under the propogation lights until I clear the first crop from the tent.
I can put a natural mycelum CO2 bag in the propogation room. Maybe a little humidifier and they will be fine enough for a holding place.I can slow them down with some blue light and have some ready to pop right into the tent and just try to keep that cycle going that way.
I actually can set aside trays to mature naturally in the sun for Winter supply and actually have a perpetual supply for once . These actually will sell just fine over the winter.In most growing zones trees like this that have matured naturally in the sun throughout the season are good and hardy below 20° which is actually kind of rare in a box inside a postal truck

**** after filling with the Growcubes I then put a 1/2” layer of shredded stonewool****
The grow-cell stays aerated,but also keeps surface roots nice and moist…… there is nothing worse than seeing your future nebari dry out in a grow tent because the top half inch of the soil tends to dry.
Shredded stonewool is by far the best material for this!!!!

 

[cmeg1]

ROOTS ON THE FIRST BATCH—-10 days!!!

So results are in from the extended 4 hour dunk in the 5:2 ratio fulvic acid/kelp powders.

I tried the dunk for the first time on this batch’s 7th day from sticking them when I first noticed callousing……… I have always been aware that the kelp is a root stimulate for cuttings when used with a pure water and the fulvic acid will transport it into the plant tissue and as little as four hours directly into the cells of the plant and proliferate rooting big time ….one of the great benefits of kelp and fuvlic acid.

So here we are three days after this root stimulate experiment and roots are bursting on many of them about six out of 10 and I’ll probably have the near 100% success that I always do …..the other ones not rooting are not very far behind.

So with these results I went ahead and did two more trays I did cuttings two trays a day for a period of a week so every two days I will look and see if I got callus.
I have nine trays total for a total of 540 cuttings.

I’m really happy with these results the fulvic acid really soakes this root stimulant into the callousing cuttings and then …Bam !!!
three days later prolific rooting…..no joke.

I guarantee they are more abundant and full rooting than they would’ve been without the four hour soak.That is always good!!!

**** you can compare the difference in three days……… before dunking and three days after dunking……… in the fourth and fifth pictures****

 

[Darth Masiah]

i was thinking a 5:2 dunk for newly collected yamadori might be beneficial. maybe when you see new buds along the trunk or a little after digging.

 

[cmeg1]

i was thinking a 5:2 dunk for newly collected yamadori might be beneficial. maybe when you see new buds along the trunk or a little after digging.

I guess it would not be wrong at all I definitely wouldn’t mix the soil onto leaves ,but that’s probably not when you collect them anyway.

I see it being only beneficial to roots.

But maybe I would wait until the roots heal up a bit and then just start drenching the soil ……open roots, fulvic acid ,dirt ,fungus ….I don’t know….. sometimes it makes me a little nervous. I would wait until everything is healed up and it’s got its growth together and then apply the stuff.

 

[Darth Masiah]

yeah, i meant root drench.

 

[LuZiKui]

GETTING READY FOR CUTTINGS…FINALLY!!!!!


tmat and add some blue light to halt their growth until I can grow them in the tent at April for an immediate 2nd batch……..I plan on 3 crops this season!
View attachment 468061

Love all the info you post on here, thanks for keeping this thread going and documenting everything.

I apologize if you've answered this before but could you ever get too many roots or too compact of growth? I've never seen roots and needles (or whatever you call the young needles) grow so close together.

Or is it one of those things where it's better to have compact growth and if you decide you don't want it in the future you can select buds that are higher on the trunk?