Extended season starting trees indoors

[Ryceman3]

Just wanted to be the 1001st response in this thread () and to say I always enjoy reading/seeing the progressions. Never a dull moment. Well done and keep doing what you’re doing!

 

[cmeg1]

SOME AMUR MAPLE TEST SUBJECTS AND KOREAN HORNBEAM!!!

Testing the lighting with these.The Amur’s look good and the korean hornbeams do too.
The korean hornbeams I am familiar with,but the maples need special care in the early stages so I have the lights very low strength between 200-300 par.
I will inevitably plant Amur Maples seedlings into clumps also.I have much more seed and also lots of fresh trident seed.

The first crop will be devoted to clumps and the following crops will be single seedlings.
These first crops are quite dense kabudachi starters with 15-18 seedlings in each 2” mini block of stonewool.
This is why the following crops will be singles……..in 20 kabudachi starters I go through almost 400 seedlings!!!

The Siberian elm are excellent for these projects as the seed germinates in a day and is very,very reliable.

 

[cmeg1]

KOREAN HORNBEAM AND SIBERIAN ELM KABUDACHI STARTERS!!!!!

These are beginning to look quite cool.There was some strange and variable sort of nutrient deficient signals with the Siberian Elm.I have deduced that it is mainly lack of roots in these very shallow stonewool blocks I fabricated.

Others are fine and others had some weirdness……..I plucked the bad leaves and they are pulling through…did not lose a single tree.

It could of also been the prolonged addition of mono ammonium nitrate root starting fertilizer too……if more than 3–4 weeks of the increased ammonium nitrogen that comes with it..there will inevitably be a calcium and magnesium deficiency……..too much ammonium type nitrogen will do that……..only in the seedlings first few weeka is it beneficial to add mono ammonium phosphate for a 20% or so root mass increase at the start of a plants life.

Also a decrease in roots in the small blocks I made…….causing some ordinary signs of dryness it seems……
They will catch on as roots air-prune and increase in health and color………some are absolutely fine……..this is how I deduced it not to be a nutrient deficiency for the most part because if my nutrient was to blame than it would affect all of them.So it is either a fungus or environmental stressors………I’ve deduced an environmental stressor………small rooting medium causing immediate removal of tap root and plant not having all the moisture uptake it needs……they will improve though.I am quite happy with them.

The Korean Hornbeam have the most beautiful in growth colors.They react very strongly to co2 fertilization….so much so that they do not even color well in the Autumn their first season outside.The leaves are so vibrantly full of energy I guess……..being a Coreana Hornbeam this will inevitably change as they are known for great color……..I’m still trying to decide if these are mixed Coreana var. and the regular turczaninowii.
At any rate they are very nice……look at the salmon red coloring on the bottoms of the leaves……these are pumping with energy from the co2….they always do this.

 

[cmeg1]

LIGHT RECIPES!!!

I once gave this an experiment and was very suprised with the dwarfing characteristics of adding supplimental blue lights.
The addition of pure blue led’s will stoo meriste elongation quite significantly and is actually recommended for seedlings and also the veg stage of plant growth keeping the leaves thick and sturdy and also more compact branching and also smaller ,tighter plant cells.

The results from my first go around about 2 years ago showed very pronounced stunting of growth with Japanese Black Pine seedling cuttings…….like 1/2” tall cuttings that had a terminal bud on them already like the Autumn time and really thick needles.

Anyhow I am giving it another go with regular pine seedlings…maybe some larch too.

More blue this time….about 60% pure blue and 40% regular white spectrum(4000k blue enhanced) led’s I always use.

A total of 400-450 ppfd.
This is always fun and could prove very beneficial on seedlings making them resemble cuttings possibly………don’t know till’ you try.

Here are results from a couple years ago and also the new setup out in the growshed.

 

[cmeg1]

day off with the trees……wiring an elm


A couple weeks ago I wired (or actually discovered it only needed a trim)…NICE!
an Siberian elm.Only a season old…..And some pics of the pines in the winter storage are….Was a nice relaxing day in the yard.

 

[_#1_]

I'm can't stop thinking about your pinus!

More notably your larger ones

Let us know when they're available man!

 

[ChristianDGreat]

Thank you for the detailed response. I recently bought Harley’s master grower course and have been going down the biostimulant rabbit hole.

Do you think it would be effective to Foliar feed with 5:2 fulvic kelp every other week and alternate root drenches with fish emulsion/calmag on alternating weeks

so week 1: 5:2 fulvic:kelp
Week 2 fish/calmag drench
Week 3 5:2
… etc

I would also have organic cakes like a biogold on each plant in addition to this.

Do you think this would be effective or too much feeding for the duration of the growing season?

Anyone tried this on a refined bonsai?

 

[Deleted member 32750]

Anyone tried this on a refined bonsai?

I haven’t yet, but I am planning to this coming growing season.
Bjorn does something similar but its with a humic acid product called root rukus and liquid fish and kelp.

 

[ChristianDGreat]

I haven’t yet, but I am planning to this coming growing season.
Bjorn does something similar but its with a humic acid product called root rukus and liquid fish and kelp.

Yeah I saw it too on Bjorn videos.
Hes using Kelp and Humic acid folliar spray through the growing season once a month.
Root rukus at early spring.

 

[cmeg1]

Yeah I saw it too on Bjorn videos.
Hes using Kelp and Humic acid folliar spray through the growing season once a month.
Root rukus at early spring.

I use it weekly……fulvic acid will transport it into the leaves better.
Kelp powder will burn if used more than one a week on leaves.
Super short internodes on deciduous budding species especially.

I would use it on a refined bonsai…..personally I would uuse a very pure water like clean ro water……no npk and only the oure powders.

My experiance with npk on leaves is bad…..nitrate N is too strong……..only ammoniacle N is gentle enough…….I’d rather just have the minerals in the kelp in the fulvic acid be absorbed …very rich in calcium and micronutrients you can actually forgo micronutrient additives in your Hydroponic formula when using fulvic acid kelp or humic acid.

I save the ammoniacal nitrogen for just a quick fix of nutrient deficiency which is the most common deficiency for me….it’s pretty rare for me to find any other deficiency.

These results speak for themselves……massive backbuds on an 6” tall plant…(zelkova).1/4” internodes immediately.

Also check what the black humic acid powder does to perlite!!!!
Gives a nice akadama like color!!!

 

[Maiden69]

Anyone tried this on a refined bonsai?

I would use it on a refined bonsai…..personally I would uuse a very pure water like clean ro water……no npk and only the pure powders.

Definitely RO water. As far as using it on a refined bonsai, I would say no... unless you are planning on doing a cut-back because either the tree got too leggy or too thick on the refined branching in order to induce back budding. I don't think you want the type of back budding the 5:2 mix give you while the tree is refined. It would be a nightmare to keep in check as it will prompt new buds and branches to pop out of almost every leave. At least that is what I experience on my ficus and elm trees. And what you can clearly see happening on the zelkova above.

 

[ChristianDGreat]

I use it weekly……fulvic acid will transport it into the leaves better.
Kelp powder will burn if used more than one a week on leaves.
Super short internodes on deciduous budding species especially.

I would use it on a refined bonsai…..personally I would uuse a very pure water like clean ro water……no npk and only the oure powders.

My experiance with npk on leaves is bad…..nitrate N is too strong……..only ammoniacle N is gentle enough…….I’d rather just have the minerals in the kelp in the fulvic acid be absorbed …very rich in calcium and micronutrients you can actually forgo micronutrient additives in your Hydroponic formula when using fulvic acid kelp or humic acid.

I save the ammoniacal nitrogen for just a quick fix of nutrient deficiency which is the most common deficiency for me….it’s pretty rare for me to find any other deficiency.

These results speak for themselves……massive backbuds on an 6” tall plant…(zelkova).1/4” internodes immediately.

Also check what the black humic acid powder does to perlite!!!!
Gives a nice akadama like color!!!
View attachment 466602View attachment 466603View attachment 466604View attachment 466605View attachment 466606

Thanks! @cmeg1 I will definitely try the Fulvic and Kelp combo this season with some sample plants and see the result.
Is this good for the whole growing season? or only at the spring?

 

[penumbra]

I spray kelp every other week during the growing season. This year I will add fulvic acid.

 

[Srt8madness]

Just ordered more 5:2 humic/fulvic/kelp, and for the first time, calmag. I also got some myco + innocc.

One of the chief complaints I've seen against using myco, is not knowing what strain the tree uses. But some light Googling turned up some results for JBP, of myco and beneficial bacteria strains. Found myco that includes those strains. Time will tell, but I expect it to work. Especially beneficial for my seedlings started indoors.

 

[Srt8madness]

Posted the above and left out the big "Thank you! to Curtis for introducing us to these growing techniques

 

[cmeg1]

Thanks! @cmeg1 I will definitely try the Fulvic and Kelp combo this season with some sample plants and see the result.
Is this good for the whole growing season? or only at the spring?

Every seven days……no sooner…..will definately burn…….even two weeks is very beneficial.

Can add yucca powder as a surfectant for better even coverage.

 

[cmeg1]

And what you can clearly see happening on the zelkova above.

I have got to use this for Broom Zelkova.
I never get around to it.

 

[cmeg1]

GETTING READY FOR CUTTINGS…FINALLY!!!!!

I’ve started these seedlings with lots of blue suppliment.I will note they do look a bit stockier with thicker needles.
There are prepared flats of pre-cutting JBP and also forty test subjucts of regular seedlings in 2” stonewool cubes…….probably around 40% pure blue and 60% white light led.
It will be interesting to see the dwarfing effect as regular seedlings always seem to extend a little too much sometimes indoors….for my liking anyways.

So I’m gonna start taking a Cuttings tomorrow morning after the entire light cycle almost so they are all pumped up……I always will state they will root 50% quicker because of this technique alone.
As always …prepared 1:1 N-K ratio…not exceeding .7EC

CO2 pumped always helps rooting speed.
Also will be using Dip& Grow…(by far the best method) and dipped for 4-5 minutes at the 10x strength ratio.
The industrial heating mat is set @ 85 f,but the cuttings trays are suspended above the water filled bottom so there is no anearobic bacteria growth……the trays above will be fine as it is sterile perlite with a 50% mix of orchid spahgnum…….85 F will root them about a week or so early and I plan to uproot as soon as the roots are 1/2” long( as shown in the example picture)…so planting in the stonewool is quick and easy and also no root trimming shock which is a very real inhibitor of growth and settling phase productivity rates….I will leave the humidity up and lights low in the tents to acclimate.and the roots just continue into growth…much better this way.
They will grow in the larger tent with regular led lighting I always use.
I’m anticipating extras so hopefully can grow inside on the heatmat and add some blue light to halt their growth until I can grow them in the tent at April for an immediate 2nd batch……..I plan on 3 crops this season!

 

[sierrajuniper]

For me they grow an inch of trunk a year it just seems like it disappears .I mean after all the research I found it is essentially stone it just looks like wet Sandy akadama to me after an inch or two of trunk growth …..it literally just turns to wood and roots in my opinion.I myself wondered that too in the beginning and have found only positive attributes of this media if used correcty.

**** yeah I was referring to the 2 inch mini cubes that grow all my starters ….I see you may be referring to the cubes stonewool media that you mix with Perlite.
Alone by itself the little tiny cubes are good in small pots or grow pouches for starters and then I would treat just like a 2” stonewool mini block full of roots and disappearing.I see no problem mixing the cubes media 50-50 with large grade perlite in a gradual start from a 2 inch mini cube up to graded system of bigger and bigger pots because you’re always root pruning back ,but then again have I taken to this? no ,not really.
Absolutely for growout and Starters in my opinion .It is basalt stone.Never degrades.
I will probably incorporate these or the gro wool media when I finally put tress in bonsai pots.
I will probably resort to large grade perlite,super chunky 1/2” or 3/8” vermiculite….and interlaced with growwool or something or as a top layer.

I am just so used to hydro media……..I also like to line my bonsai pots with an entrapment self pruning fabric.
Also the gro wool type stonewool will get a nice green color especially in a small layer on top of media.
But ,yes
I have no bonsai in pots yetView attachment 421084View attachment 421085View attachment 421086View attachment 421087

Hi Cmeg1,

Can you share the link for entrapment self pruning fabric? Thank you!

 

[andrewiles]

Do you know the reason for the blue light dwarfing effect? Applogies if it was discussed earlier, this is a looong thread. My understanding is that increasing the R:FR ratio is the primary means used to reduce plant height growth, since plants use the reduction in red to recognize the presence of a photosynthetically active canopy above. I haven't read of a similar effect with blue.