Ebihara maples
- Thread starter markyscott
- Start date
It has worked for me with zelkova. Sorry I can't provide a picture, I've sold the tree.
I don't know. Maybe.
AlainK
Imperial Masterpiece
Oh, OK.
Thanks.
Thanks.
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
I think the fusing only will occur when there are enough roots pressing together. Not in that fase yet...
fh05
Mame
Tieball
Masterpiece
Thanks for the trunk diameter measurement. Question: As you continue work on the roots, and they continue to grow and get pruned, does the base of the trunk also continue to thicken? Or.....Is the trunk thickness mostly impacted by what's growing above ground....leaves and more branches?
Thanks for following through on this post and answering questions to anyone along the way. Very educational...and excellent reading. I like your approach to ideas and trying things...you're also totally good at saying...well, that didn't work as planned so here's my next approach. Mighty fine!
Thanks for following through on this post and answering questions to anyone along the way. Very educational...and excellent reading. I like your approach to ideas and trying things...you're also totally good at saying...well, that didn't work as planned so here's my next approach. Mighty fine!
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
Hi Tieball. I can tell you the theory. We're all students here and learning together the practice. The idea is based on the fact that basal flare on trees is caused shallow surface roots which provide most of the water and nutrients to the tree and thus receive most of the sugars from the leaves. This causes cell division to occur at the junction between the stem and the roots. There may be some root fusion there as well - I don't see why this wouldn't happen, but that's not the main driver for creating basal flare as far as I know. So the idea is that by eliminating all but the horizontally growing roots it forces the tree to put all the energy into those which cause the flare to occur. By allowing the roots to run, it makes them strong, amplifying the effect. By keeping the root strength uniform, it makes the basal flare uniform.
Compare these two trees:
The first was grown in a nursery pot creating encircling roots. The surface root development was poor resulting in no basal flare. The second was field grown with a strong surface root system. That created the basal flare - basically we're trying to recreate this effect in a pot.
The trunk will thicken too, but that's pretty small unless I allow it to grow tall. This tree has reached the trunk proportions I'm looking for, so I won't be doing that. I may eliminate that second trunk eventually ....
Hope that helps.
Scott
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wireme
Masterpiece
I'll try again, I'll try a more agressive deeper cut and try to maintain surface moisture more, see what happens. Maybe even put a maple on a board too, assuming they're ok in spring it's been a brutal cold winter so far.
iant
Chumono
I think Scott has shown us a very important technique for getting the roots to go out radially and I'm very thankful to him for sharing his experience. It's very cool to have a thread which shows a plan with detail and has the follow up to show how it's progressed. Thanks Scott!
I don't know if this belongs in another thread but given the title of Ebihara maples I think it might add a little to the discussion of getting root fusion and nice nebari. I'll give my thoughts and some pictures on a maple I have which followed a similar technique but instead of being nailed to a board it was planted over a fabric disk that doesn't let roots grow through it. I think it's the same idea.
In my opinion, roots are really only going to fuse in any meaningful way where they take off from the trunk. Out past that even if they're nicely spaced by nails they are not going to fuse. What you need to get nice nebari is restricting the roots to go sideways (which Scott has done very nicely) and having a ton of canopy growth fueling root growth (or a very long time.) If you look at my maple here I don't anticipate any fusion happening other than in the area that I outlined with triangles/square. What's going on in the periphery where I drew the radial lines is not going to fuse anytime soon. Working on where the roots are out here is just preparation for 5-15 years down the road (having better spacing perhaps.) For the next 5 yrs what matters is growing the snot out of the canopy so that the root growth makes those roots between my triangles expand in volume and fuse.
Next areas to fuse:
Areas that may be fusing many years from now but for now are just hanging out:
This is a side view of the roots growing in a plane:
As a side note the way I got this root growth was to let the canopy go unchecked from when I got the plant in spring of 2012 until I repotted in spring of 2015. The sacrifice to that is that I have some 1.5 inch sacrifice branch scars that I'm having to heal. One is closed and 2 are half closed. The canopy ended up about 12 feet across at some point. I let it escape through 2 more Anderson flats. Notice the roots are mostly on the sides. I included a shot of the fabric disk. I don't know what Chris uses for that but it feels like a synthetic woven fabric thing.
Canopy at full growth:
Escape root growth:
Roots mainly growing along sides:
Fabric disk:
Top flat:
Sacrifice branches:
I think if you train your roots to grow sideways, keep them in the same plane, and either grow it out a lot or be patient things should work out and you should end up with nice nebari. I've never tried root grafting but I'm sure that helps to fill the gaps.
Ian
I don't know if this belongs in another thread but given the title of Ebihara maples I think it might add a little to the discussion of getting root fusion and nice nebari. I'll give my thoughts and some pictures on a maple I have which followed a similar technique but instead of being nailed to a board it was planted over a fabric disk that doesn't let roots grow through it. I think it's the same idea.
In my opinion, roots are really only going to fuse in any meaningful way where they take off from the trunk. Out past that even if they're nicely spaced by nails they are not going to fuse. What you need to get nice nebari is restricting the roots to go sideways (which Scott has done very nicely) and having a ton of canopy growth fueling root growth (or a very long time.) If you look at my maple here I don't anticipate any fusion happening other than in the area that I outlined with triangles/square. What's going on in the periphery where I drew the radial lines is not going to fuse anytime soon. Working on where the roots are out here is just preparation for 5-15 years down the road (having better spacing perhaps.) For the next 5 yrs what matters is growing the snot out of the canopy so that the root growth makes those roots between my triangles expand in volume and fuse.
Next areas to fuse:
Areas that may be fusing many years from now but for now are just hanging out:
This is a side view of the roots growing in a plane:
As a side note the way I got this root growth was to let the canopy go unchecked from when I got the plant in spring of 2012 until I repotted in spring of 2015. The sacrifice to that is that I have some 1.5 inch sacrifice branch scars that I'm having to heal. One is closed and 2 are half closed. The canopy ended up about 12 feet across at some point. I let it escape through 2 more Anderson flats. Notice the roots are mostly on the sides. I included a shot of the fabric disk. I don't know what Chris uses for that but it feels like a synthetic woven fabric thing.
Canopy at full growth:
Escape root growth:
Roots mainly growing along sides:
Fabric disk:
Top flat:
Sacrifice branches:
I think if you train your roots to grow sideways, keep them in the same plane, and either grow it out a lot or be patient things should work out and you should end up with nice nebari. I've never tried root grafting but I'm sure that helps to fill the gaps.
Ian
Ian,
It is the same basic concept, except the fabric disk doesn't prevent roots from growing down. They will try.
Screwing the trunk to a board prevents them from growing down. Haven't you ever seen a tree so pot bound that it's pushing itself up out of the pot? Downward growing roots. They actually push the trunk up.
About the nails: the purpose is to direct the roots to be evenly spaced, and prevent them from crossing over. Do that when they're small, and you won't have any large crossing roots.
Yes, all the "fusion" takes place at the point where the roots come off the trunk.
This is the long term goal of the technique:
It is the same basic concept, except the fabric disk doesn't prevent roots from growing down. They will try.
Screwing the trunk to a board prevents them from growing down. Haven't you ever seen a tree so pot bound that it's pushing itself up out of the pot? Downward growing roots. They actually push the trunk up.
About the nails: the purpose is to direct the roots to be evenly spaced, and prevent them from crossing over. Do that when they're small, and you won't have any large crossing roots.
Yes, all the "fusion" takes place at the point where the roots come off the trunk.
This is the long term goal of the technique:
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Is there a reason for not cutting back the roots before covering. I'm not sure I understand why affixing it to a board and then leaving all the roots long. Secondary growth is always stronger and will grow larger when grown on cut back material. If the idea is to beef up the flare and possibly gain root fusion, it will occur in half the time if the roots are cut back short, or even shorter than I have drawn.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
I think the only reason I hadn't done it is because I hadn't thought of it. I have a few more like this. Perhaps I'll cut one of those shorter and we can all see how it does. Thanks for the suggestion, Al.
S
Tieball
Masterpiece
Cool!.....Now I am understanding much more about roots....I'm probably much more 'comfortable' taking new steps with roots when I dig up some ground-growing American Elm and Hackberry trees. They are all growing on tiles right now....and roots have just been 'positioned' periodically. Time to strategically review.
Questioning....because I don't understand fully...and asking is how I will learn more. Doesn't a longer growing root thicken at the trunk attachment area faster? Would cutting the root shorter stop the thickening at the trunk flare level and place any thickening out at the cut area keeping the trunk attached root from thickening? I hope that question makes sense......
Yes, cutting the roots shorter would force them to backbud closer to (and at) the trunk.
Here is an example of a zelkova I did:
When I showed the picture to Boon, he told me that I should have cut the roots back farther. To about where I put the chopstick
thumblessprimate1
Masterpiece
Learn something new everyday! These pictures really help.
thumblessprimate1
Masterpiece
This is Japanese maple I started last year. Would you recommend I remove more roots next year? I already made it pretty flat, but yall appear to have a much thinner rootball than me.
JoeR
Masterpiece
I would at least make it not lopsided, that right side is very weak comparatively.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
I would TP. It's not balanced. There are far more roots on left one side than the other. We want the eventual nebari to be balanced also. Like these.
thumblessprimate1
Masterpiece
I'm a bit of chicken after my work on the JBP. The maple is about 3 feet tall. I've removed much side branching from the long sacrifice branch. Would a cutting back to the red line on the roots be okay or too aggressive? Green duck feet indicate where I do a couple of approach grafts.
Whole tree.
Whole tree.
