Ebihara maples

[Dav4]

A decent basal flare on a healthy trident or Japanese maple with good initial rootage will take 4-5 years to develop. I suspect those pancake nebari trees will take decades in a grow box...I don't think there's any proprietary ingredients we're missing.

 

[iant]

I also suspect that this flare needs to develop WHILE you're growing the trunk to it's desired thickness. If you start with a trunk that's already 3 inches thick and then start on the nebari it would probably take a very long time.

 

[Dav4]

I also suspect that this flare needs to develop WHILE you're growing the trunk to it's desired thickness. If you start with a trunk that's already 3 inches thick and then start on the nebari it would probably take a very long time.

Actually, you don't. I've seen it with air layered or ground layered stock...the flare develops as the roots develop.

 

[iant]

"the flare develops as the roots develop."

My point exactly!

 

[thumblessprimate1]

No. Just the opposite. Being buried keeps them moist. They don't "bark up". The bark that protects them from the sun, and drying up, slows the fusing.

See the one I posted on the Facebook link. Once the roots get really well established, the fusing starts.

I've been thinking a lot about fusion. Do roots fuse below the soil or above the soil? If both ways, then are they by different mechanisms?
Does the irritation that occurs with raking roots and repotting help the roots to adhere by the formation of scar tissue? Does this same irritation occur naturally when mature roots are so congested leading them to adhere? Kind of like how tree branches can adhere and fuse. From what I recall, young root cells are more fluid; it's how they can keep extending. They can't fuse like how we'd like.

 

[leatherback]

ask him how long it takes. Unless Scott chimes in. He's at Boon's now

excellent. And please share here

 

[Adair M]

I've been thinking a lot about fusion. Do roots fuse below the soil or above the soil? If both ways, then are they by different mechanisms?
Does the irritation that occurs with raking roots and repotting help the roots to adhere by the formation of scar tissue? Does this same irritation occur naturally when mature roots are so congested leading them to adhere? Kind of like how tree branches can adhere and fuse. From what I recall, young root cells are more fluid; it's how they can keep extending. They can't fuse like how we'd like.

You're thinking about it wrong.

The roots don't "fuse", like join together like a graft joins together. The nebari plate expands slowly out from the base of the trunk. Which is why we want a lot of tiny little feeder roots right at the base of the trunk. Which is why you grow these in grow boxes rather than in the ground.

In the ground, the tree will take the easy route and let a few large roots extend. It builds a few really big roots. That's not what we are striving for with this technique.

We want even, uniform nebari, all around. Large roots are discouraged in favor of lots and lots of little ones growing right off the trunk. As they gr0w there bases swell up and begin to make the "plate".

Now to do this, we have to remove the large roots fairly frequently. Because if we don't, the tree will let the big roots take over. So, annually, or every other year we need to uncover the system, see what's happening, and make appropriate adjustments. Remove large roots. Spread the root system out. Make sure there's roots all around, no gaps, and it's not lopsided.

Yes, it takes a long time. It's tedious. Requires attention to detail. Patience.

That's why we don't see many of them here. We're in too big of a rush.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Yes, it takes a long time. It's tedious. Requires attention to detail. Patience.

That's why we don't see many of them here. We're in too big of a rush.

Make Nebari Great Again!

 

[wireme]

I'm dying to get a look at this one. It's been 3 years since I've seen it last. In a regular nursery pot with a plastic bag underneath .

 

[Tieball]

You're thinking about it wrong.

The roots don't "fuse", like join together like a graft joins together. The nebari plate expands slowly out from the base of the trunk. Which is why we want a lot of tiny little feeder roots right at the base of the trunk. Which is why you grow these in grow boxes rather than in the ground.

In the ground, the tree will take the easy route and let a few large roots extend. It builds a few really big roots. That's not what we are striving for with this technique.

We want even, uniform nebari, all around. Large roots are discouraged in favor of lots and lots of little ones growing right off the trunk. As they gr0w there bases swell up and begin to make the "plate".

Now to do this, we have to remove the large roots fairly frequently. Because if we don't, the tree will let the big roots take over. So, annually, or every other year we need to uncover the system, see what's happening, and make appropriate adjustments. Remove large roots. Spread the root system out. Make sure there's roots all around, no gaps, and it's not lopsided.

Yes, it takes a long time. It's tedious. Requires attention to detail. Patience.

That's why we don't see many of them here. We're in too big of a rush.

Thanks. Explained very well.

 

[markyscott]

I think Scott has shown us a very important technique for getting the roots to go out radially and I'm very thankful to him for sharing his experience. It's very cool to have a thread which shows a plan with detail and has the follow up to show how it's progressed. Thanks Scott!
I don't know if this belongs in another thread but given the title of Ebihara maples I think it might add a little to the discussion of getting root fusion and nice nebari. I'll give my thoughts and some pictures on a maple I have which followed a similar technique but instead of being nailed to a board it was planted over a fabric disk that doesn't let roots grow through it. I think it's the same idea.
In my opinion, roots are really only going to fuse in any meaningful way where they take off from the trunk. Out past that even if they're nicely spaced by nails they are not going to fuse. What you need to get nice nebari is restricting the roots to go sideways (which Scott has done very nicely) and having a ton of canopy growth fueling root growth (or a very long time.) If you look at my maple here I don't anticipate any fusion happening other than in the area that I outlined with triangles/square. What's going on in the periphery where I drew the radial lines is not going to fuse anytime soon. Working on where the roots are out here is just preparation for 5-15 years down the road (having better spacing perhaps.) For the next 5 yrs what matters is growing the snot out of the canopy so that the root growth makes those roots between my triangles expand in volume and fuse.

Next areas to fuse:
View attachment 129266

Areas that may be fusing many years from now but for now are just hanging out:
View attachment 129267

This is a side view of the roots growing in a plane:
View attachment 129268

As a side note the way I got this root growth was to let the canopy go unchecked from when I got the plant in spring of 2012 until I repotted in spring of 2015. The sacrifice to that is that I have some 1.5 inch sacrifice branch scars that I'm having to heal. One is closed and 2 are half closed. The canopy ended up about 12 feet across at some point. I let it escape through 2 more Anderson flats. Notice the roots are mostly on the sides. I included a shot of the fabric disk. I don't know what Chris uses for that but it feels like a synthetic woven fabric thing.

Canopy at full growth:
View attachment 129269

Escape root growth:
View attachment 129270

View attachment 129271

Roots mainly growing along sides:
View attachment 129272

Fabric disk:
View attachment 129273

Top flat:
View attachment 129274

Sacrifice branches:
View attachment 129275

I think if you train your roots to grow sideways, keep them in the same plane, and either grow it out a lot or be patient things should work out and you should end up with nice nebari. I've never tried root grafting but I'm sure that helps to fill the gaps.

Ian

Thanks Ian - that's a nice add to the discussion. I agree that doing what you say, specifically:

...I think if you train your roots to grow sideways, keep them in the same plane, and either grow it out a lot or be patient things should work out and you should end up with nice nebari.

Will result in swelling at the junction between the stem and the roots, creating the basal flare we're looking for. I'd add that you should work to eliminate all downward growing roots - like apical growth in the canopy, downward growing roots are stronger than lateral roots and can quickly take over, reducing the lateral extension.

Here's a maple (Kotohime Japanese Maple, specifically) that's never been grown on a board - just good repotting and root work technique:


It's spent it's whole life in a pot - no ground growing. I think we'd all agree that this is a fine nebari. Allowing lateral roots to extend while eliminating downward growing roots is the key and there are a number of ways we can accomplish this. A fabric bag can work - growing in a shallow pot can work - growing on a board can work. What I like about growing on a board is the degree of control you have on the actual shape of the roots and the direction from which they exit the trunk.

Scott

 

[Smoke]

I can see where every root was grafted on. All the grafts at the base greatly helped flare the base. The whole left side of the flare is full of scar tissue of the scions being cut off after fusing. I'd be willing to bet that this was a very one sided undercut trunk that was repaired. Done very well and showing a good and brite future now, but probably not handled well during its grow out.

I would say the green line was sorta the soil level, (exaggerated) and the trunk in blue was undercut. The trunk was plated on the right side and so roots were grafted on the left. I show one prominent root marked in red with even green filler in the old hole covering the nail holding it on. The rest of the root grafts are visible with the jagged red line of the cut off scions.

 

[markyscott]

I can see where every root was grafted on. All the grafts at the base greatly helped flare the base. The whole left side of the flare is full of scar tissue of the scions being cut off after fusing. I'd be willing to bet that this was a very one sided undercut trunk that was repaired. Done very well and showing a good and brite future now, but probably not handled well during its grow out.

I would say the green line was sorta the soil level, (exaggerated) and the trunk in blue was undercut. The trunk was plated on the right side and so roots were grafted on the left. I show one prominent root marked in red with even green filler in the old hole covering the nail holding it on. The rest of the root grafts are visible with the jagged red line of the cut off scions.
View attachment 129789 View attachment 129790

Good observation, Al. I don't think I picked up on that when I was working on it, but I'd not be surprised if it had been grafted exactly as you infer. In Boon's garden (and in mine anymore it seems) there's grafting of all sorts going on all the time.

Scott

 

[Smoke]

You gonna be at Boon's this weekend? We can walk around and I can pick out all the grafts for ya.....

It's easy to get caught up in the awe factor but putting on the ole "hobby grounding word" brings even the best trees back to reality. The first clue is it does not look natural. After that, inspection reveals the fix. There is no doubt about it that this will be a killer base, it just needs some years to erase the signs of the work.

In Boon's garden (and in mine anymore it seems) there's grafting of all sorts going on all the time.

Scott

And there ya go..."no grafting.... no good bonsai" Albehero Keppler

 

[Smoke]

It would be cool to see why they justified all the work?/!!$

Whole tree?

 

[markyscott]

You gonna be at Boon's this weekend? We can walk around and I can pick out all the grafts for ya.....

It's easy to get caught up in the awe factor but putting on the ole "hobby grounding word" brings even the best trees back to reality. The first clue is it does not look natural. After that, inspection reveals the fix. There is no doubt about it that this will be a killer base, it just needs some years to erase the signs of the work.



And there ya go..."no grafting.... no good bonsai" Albehero Keppler

I was there last week. I would have enjoyed doing that with you. There are quite a few grafts I can pick out, but some of them are damn hard. Anymore I graft nearly every time I get together with him.

 

[markyscott]

It would be cool to see why they justified all the work?/!!$

Whole tree?

It's a nice tree. Let me see if I have a full picture of it.

 

[Smoke]

I was there last week. I would have enjoyed doing that with you. There are quite a few grafts I can pick out, but some of them are damn hard. Anymore I graft nearly every time I get together with him.

Why in the Hell would you go there the week before the show? You got manure for your brains?

 

[markyscott]

Why in the Hell would you go there the week before the show? You got manure for your brains?

Probably. But I wanted to work with Daisaku and I cannot be in San Francisco this week due to work commitments. I'll be at the show next year.

Scott

 

[CamdenJim]

Coarse soil is layered on top of the board, worked in with chopsticks and watered in.
View attachment 129118
View attachment 129119
View attachment 129122

Thanks for the detailed photos and explanation. The whole series was more than helpful and enlightening.
And inspiring.
Jim