Eastern Redbud Cercis Canadensis

[JudyB]

I have a couple old ones here on the property, they are super gnarly. They do have dieback often.

 

[Owen Reich]

I've seen dwarf forms of Cercis chinensis grown in containers bloom, as well as weeping redbuds in nursery containers. Never a C. canadensis in a bonsai pot. Not saying it's not possible.

If I were to try a Cercis for bonsai, it would be an Asian species with smaller leaves and shorter internodes. I'm working on a Disanthus cercidifolius (witch hazel family) clump style now; similar aesthetic without the container troubles. I'll start a thread for it soon.

 

[sorce]

start a thread

Just throwing a support post out there....

Since you are the only one of our Major Players that come help us out here.

It is much appreciated.

People throw a bunch of other names around and it seems like you don't come up enough.

What is your schedule like?
How you doing?

Sorce

 

[just.wing.it]

I saw this dude on YouTube....
YouTube · Appalachian Bonsai
5:34
Collecting for Bonsai - Roadside Attractions 1
Feb 7, 2016

 

[Cadillactaste]

Saw a landscape redbud blooming this morning too, weird... It was only on a low branch but still pretty abnormal.

@JudyB they usually bloom on two year old wood, maybe pruning had something to do with yours not flowering?

My lavender twist a weeping redbud is dormant in my landscape currently, never heard of them blooming this late. Though they say a stressed tree can bloom. So I pondered in a pot maybe stressed...but you say also in ground...how odd. Doesn't happen in my Ohio yard.

 

[cbroad]

Yeah, it wasn't that big, maybe around 8' tall so it was probably planted pretty recently, definitely not established. It was one of those chartreuse leafed ones, either hearts of gold or rising sun, so maybe wacky/unstable genetics...?

 

[Underdog]

Been scouting for one to dig, There are lots chopped down by roadsides but hacked up pretty bad with multi trunks. Still looking...

 

[coh]

I've got an eastern redbud in my growing bed, hoping to dig it and work on the roots in the spring. It's about ready to containerize, if I decide that the structure is worth it. It started life under a fence and had really interesting lower trunk movement, but that has largely disappeared as the trunk has grown. Does have interesting bark though.

I had one in a growbox for a few years and it did produce a few flowers one spring, so I think it can flower in a container. But that was a large box, not a small bonsai pot. We'll see...

 

[Owen Reich]

Just throwing a support post out there....

Since you are the only one of our Major Players that come help us out here.

It is much appreciated.

People throw a bunch of other names around and it seems like you don't come up enough.

What is your schedule like?
How you doing?

Sorce

I travel full time for bonsai "keep my head down" and work. Next year I have a few openings.

You can learn a lot from good threads on forums as long as adults don't devolve into pre-schoolers, so I keep track of underutilized species on here from time to time.

I'll see you in Chicago next year? My sempai, Naoki Maeoka, will be making his first bonsai trip to the states next August. Everyone should go.

 

[sorce]

I'll see you in Chicago next year?

Oh yeah...fall for sure...
Maybe spring...

If all goes well...
I might be selling pots!

Sorce

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Lifespan of 50 - 75 years in the ground is probably the reason. I have tried a few small one's potted that just plain up and died after a few years... just my thoughts on it but there could be other factors as well - they are rather large leafed.

Grimmy

Not trying to pick a fight, but when one quotes ''lifespan'' for a tree you need to consider the source of the data. Trees have no ''lifespan'' in that their cell lines are indeterminate, and can in theory keep on growing and reproducing for centuries. This is true even of the trees listed as having very short life spans. If you dig into it, the origins of life span data comes from two possible sources. The lumber industry will publish a lifespan as the age at which a multiple acre or hectare planting of trees for lumber will have matured to the point where a significant percentage of the trees in the stand will have begun to have hollow trunks. I believe I remember the magic number being 20%, but I could be wrong on the exact number. This is then used as the latest or longest interval you want a timber planting to mature before the next clear cut harvest. This is what the timber industry means by life span, harvest a stand at an age younger than the lifespan to maximize board footage or $$$ yield.

Second source is the landscape industry. Here they list life span as the time a tree will look attractive with relatively low maintenance effort in a well groomed modern landscape. At the end of the lifespan the tree will either be too large for its site, too gnarly to be viewed as attractive or disease susceptible enough that likely to have scars, hollows, broken branches or other features that would be considered ugly in a modern landscape. It does not mean the tree is dead. It means the tree gets replaced by smaller younger material allowing the landscapers to make money removing the old and money again by planting the new.

So regardless the original source of the date, neither group uses lifespan data to mean the tree is actually dead or actually dies, they use it to mean the tree is no longer useful for their industries' purposes, to make money.

It is possible to keep a redbud alive for hundreds of years. They do not go senile and die the way humans or dogs would.

Once initially published in industry related trade literature, these lifespans are often quoted out of context. Tracing back to the original research showing the criteria used to determine ''lifespan'' can be multiple levels of one article quoting an older article, quoting an older article. It can be difficult to find the source, but when one does, you will see, the criteria used to determine lifespan was something other than what we normally think about when considering life span of animals. Plants, trees in particular, are quite different than animal in this regard.

 

[GrimLore]

This is true even of the trees listed as having very short life spans.

As I mentioned I suspect the large leaf size is probably more the reason. But in regards to lifespan I have found in a few trees that here in Landscape that are rated for 10 - 15 years maximum the same species potted lasts a few seasons at best. I really should have stated "lifespan here" and actually looked up the variety, for that I stand corrected Sir!

Grimmy

 

[Tentakelaertje]

This is mine. Looking pretty gnarly already, and for sale too.
Just got it last year, so there hasn't been that much training yet.
It bloomed last winter, and that was VERY pretty.

 

[Velodog2]

Not trying to pick a fight

Not fighting, just discussing. What you say makes sense, on a logical level, but sometimes things are more complicated than that and I don’t really believe it’s as simple as you say, which is essentially that all trees are created equal in terms of lifespan. Please say so if I’m misinterpreting, but this clearly does not hold up to scrutiny. Redwoods, bristlecone pines, and their ilk aren’t among the oldest organisms alive on earth by chance. Correct me if I’m wrong, but even in Japan I’ve not heard of truly ancient Acer palmatums, for which I’ve heard lifespan estimates of not much longer than quoted than for redbuds.

It was discussed elsewhere of the seeming immortality of Acer cultivars being attributed to their ability to to push new, essentially infant growth each year from which new cuttings or grafts could be taken assuring a renewed and full lifespan for the tree they created, but that’s not saying that other cells in the tree don’t experience senescence. However even if the same is true of the outer layer of the trunk, which it may be, then lifespan could be related to something as simple as the ability of old core wood to resist rot I suppose, ensuring the structural stability of the tree. But again, it’s probably more complicated than we imagine.

Redbuds create the most beautiful deciduous literati at the edge of the woods here. That’s what I would like to see in a redbud bonsai.

 

[coh]

Perhaps redbuds and other trees that have a reputation for being short-lived, aren't really inherently short-lived...but are susceptible to some fungal/viral/bacterial pathogens that are common in their environment. If that is true, it could be that giving them the "bonsai treatment" might prolong their lives, i.e. if we treat them regularly with fungicides, we prevent a major cause of their early death. In any case, this probably isn't a major issue for many of us. For example, I'm 55 so even if the redbud I'm working on has a life span of "only" 50 years, it'll still almost certainly outlive me.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

In animals, cell lines age, become senile and cell division slows, becomes error prone (cancer) and eventually cell replacement becomes less than natural cell loss. Death becomes inevitable, humans just don't live past 130. Very, very rarely make it to 120.

Trees this type of senility has only been observed in trees of extreme age. Aspen colony estimated to be 10,000 years old they figured the cells had aged enough that successful seed production stopped around 5000 or 7000 years.

Point is senility in trees trees is nothing at all like mammalian cells.

As @coh correctly said, it is just a matter of protection from environmental & disease mortality, and vast majority of trees will live a century or more passed the "published life span"

 

[Velodog2]

Maybe! Without data is all just speculation at this point.

Regardless, as others have said, I wouldn’t let a potentially and relatively short lifespan keep me from trying redbud.

 

[Waltron]

Jack Wikle, an older gentlemen in my club who is a great grower, used to have a very nice red bud and it would flower. its dead now, he said he got too agressive with it or something, but people talk about it still. i dont have a picture of it, and ive only seen a picture of it once. just thought id throw that out there. I have transplanted several of them with great success, however not for bonsai, Im keeping my eyes peeled though too.

Leo, interesting points. I just finished reading that book the hidden lives of trees. its a really great book. I think you and pretty much anyone here would like it and im sure many have read it. But anyway, he touches on the fact that ancient old beech trees even after they topple over after hundreds of years, their root system is kept alive long after as a function of the forest. pretty interesting.

 

[Underdog]

All these reasons to continue work on my little one but also to dig some this winter/spring. I have my eye on some...

 

[Velodog2]

I have few from the Arbor Day foundation (I think) which are skinny sticks in pots. I have lots of volunteers in my beds which are in fact difficult to transplant, but not impossible. They will be a long time making bonsai. Perhaps I will try layering one of the local trees.