Does ANYONE really like or appreciate the bitchiness on this site?

[Bonsai Nut]

It does not help if a forum is flooded with -in some times of the year 10+ per day- posts of IKEA style ficus, dead s-shaped trees and seedlings. Not an excuse, but a reason for some of the direct and at times harsh responses.

There has to be a balance.

Everyone is a beginner at some point. If you do not leave open the door and put out a welcome mat, you are turning away a potential lifelong practitioner of the art. In some ways, I value Home Depot and IKEA trees - because they are one of the most effective advertisers for bonsai. Sure we have shows and exhibitions - but many people's first experience with bonsai are those mass-produced commercial trees sold out of carts or backs of vans down by the river

I think it is good practice to focus on how to maximize the enjoyment from every tree - even if they aren't the best bonsai. Then people will come back and ask for more info, and will buy more trees, and our hobby will remain vibrant and alive with lots of practitioners. I think most people respond well to the feedback that their tree is really just a beginner tree and isn't on the path to a bonsai show any time soon. What they don't respond well to is personal ridicule - just because they bought a tree that appealed to them at IKEA.

 

[leatherback]

I think it is good practice to focus on how to maximize the enjoyment from every tree - even if they aren't the best bonsai. Then people will come back and ask for more info, and will buy more trees, and our hobby will remain vibrant and alive with lots of practitioners. I think most people respond well to the feedback that their tree is really just a beginner tree and isn't on the path to a bonsai show any time soon. What they don't respond well to is personal ridicule - just because they bought a tree that appealed to them at IKEA.

Yup.

 

[AZbonsai]

Don't worry. I just wanted to understand your experience so I looked at your profile on BE. I was concerned you may have been chased off from the forum due to unjust responses by some of the members.

A few people on that forum have actually been trying to make the forum deal better with these basic questions. As I have been a member on 2 of the B.E. fora from very early on, leaving and returning upon request, I feel sort of responsible for part of what is going on. It does not help if a forum is flooded with -in some times of the year 10+ per day- posts of IKEA style ficus, dead s-shaped trees and seedlings. Not an excuse, but a reason for some of the direct and at times harsh responses.

I was a B.E. new member and I have to tell you the place had great information and I loved the website but the blog was caustic! IMO the teaching style and the message of being receptive to new bonsai enthusiasts presented in the main pages was totally nonexistent in the blog. I go back to B.E. website but I will NEVER go back to the blog for sure.

 

[coh]

There has to be a balance.

Everyone is a beginner at some point. If you do not leave open the door and put out a welcome mat, you are turning away a potential lifelong practitioner of the art. In some ways, I value Home Depot and IKEA trees - because they are one of the most effective advertisers for bonsai. Sure we have shows and exhibitions - but many people's first experience with bonsai are those mass-produced commercial trees sold out of carts or backs of vans down by the river

I think it is good practice to focus on how to maximize the enjoyment from every tree - even if they aren't the best bonsai. Then people will come back and ask for more info, and will buy more trees, and our hobby will remain vibrant and alive with lots of practitioners. I think most people respond well to the feedback that their tree is really just a beginner tree and isn't on the path to a bonsai show any time soon. What they don't respond well to is personal ridicule - just because they bought a tree that appealed to them at IKEA.

Agree, and it really isn't that hard to just scroll past the "is my tree alive" or "what kind of bonsai is this" threads if you don't want to deal with them.

That said....a nice feature to add to the forum if possible (and I've requested this before) would be an "ignore thread" option, so that particular threads wouldn't show up unless you go looking for them. The guns thread would be one I'd like to put in there, for example.

 

[Cosmos]

those mass-produced commercial trees sold out of carts or backs of vans down by the river

California is wild!

 

[AZbonsai]

California is wild!

We have those in AZ as well.

 

[Lorax7]

After being on Bonsai Emire, where if your tree isn’t 100 years old and has a 5” trunk, it’s not a Bonsai, this site is the most informative and least insulting I’ve been on. On BE the same 2-3 guys give the same response. “That’s not Bonsai” or “put it on the ground for 10 years”

To be fair, there are an extraordinary number of posts on that site of the, “Can you recommend a plan for my new ficus ginseng bonsai?” variety and the most honest response that you can give to such a post is:
Step 1 - enjoy your new ficus ginseng houseplant that will never be bonsai
Step 2 - buy another tree that has some actual potential to become bonsai and train it

That said, it is true that BE is not a very newbie-friendly place generally.

 

[Clicio]

I go back to B.E. website but I will NEVER go back to the blog for sure.

Please do go, even if only to take a look.
As @leatherback said, he is one of the main players promoting this needed change, from a monosyllabic dry response to a friendlier one.
First time I posted over there I got the two different styles answering my rookie questions; @leatherbacks was the friendly one, BUT...the cold shower, blunt ones helped me also.

 

[Michael P]

Although new to this site, I've done bonsai off and on since 1975, held office in our local club, and participated in a number of conventions, shows, and workshops. For several years I have been a moderator of a planted aquarium forum structured much like this one. Frankly, I am often appalled by the behavior on this site, especially toward beginners. Were I a moderator here I would quickly become unpopular for deleting posts and giving infractions right and left.

At the same time, there are some incredibly knowledgeable people here and I have learned a lot. Unlike a beginner, I have the confidence to dismiss rude behavior and learn in spite of it. Some of the beginners here are obviously very young, "This is my first bonsai, my mom bought it for my birthday." And some even say that they know that the tree isn't good and plead for people to be kind. Yet they get slapped anyway.

 

[coh]

Although new to this site, I've done bonsai off and on since 1975, held office in our local club, and participated in a number of conventions, shows, and workshops. For several years I have been a moderator of a planted aquarium forum structured much like this one. Frankly, I am often appalled by the behavior on this site, especially toward beginners. Were I a moderator here I would quickly become unpopular for deleting posts and giving infractions right and left.

At the same time, there are some incredibly knowledgeable people here and I have learned a lot. Unlike a beginner, I have the confidence to dismiss rude behavior and learn in spite of it. Some of the beginners here are obviously very young, "This is my first bonsai, my mom bought it for my birthday." And some even say that they know that the tree isn't good and plead for people to be kind. Yet they get slapped anyway.

It's kind of a catch-22 : the largely un-moderated nature of this site is a main reason it is so active (compare internet bonsai club or bonsai study group). It's also the reason why there is so much nastiness at times. I get tired of it sometimes and simply take breaks from the forum, but I always come back...

 

[Bananaman]

Were I a moderator here I would quickly become unpopular for deleting posts and giving infractions right and left.

I remember when Matt Chroust gave moderator rights to Joanie Berkwitz. That was the end of BonsaiTALK. There is a tendency in the USA to treat kids and children with respect and love. This usually translates to I will never talk loud or spank my kids ever. Oh and by the way, my kid should get a participation trophy too. This place used to be a great place like bonsaiTalk was. Many of the same trouble people that were there came here also and over the years there have been a calvacade of experts that talk a lot but never show a tree or have none even remotely ready to show. I have taken maples down to bare trunk stumps and built them into showable trees in less than five years here. There are some that are very vocal that have worked on trees ten years and it still looks like a young nursery tree.

 

[BrianBay9]

It's really easy enough to ignore the trolls and the personal BS. There was a time that I found that hard to do, but I guess I've matured. For my own contributions I try very had to only comment on things that I've had personal experience with.

 

[AZbonsai]

Please do go, even if only to take a look.
As @leatherback said, he is one of the main players promoting this needed change, from a monosyllabic dry response to a friendlier one.
First time I posted over there I got the two different styles answering my rookie questions; @leatherbacks was the friendly one, BUT...the cold shower, blunt ones helped me also.

No thanks. I have found a home here. It is not perfect (neither am I) but at least I feel welcome here. A bit underappreciated, but welcome! ????

 

[Michael P]

It's really easy enough to ignore the trolls and the personal BS. There was a time that I found that hard to do, but I guess I've matured. For my own contributions I try very had to only comment on things that I've had personal experience with.

It isn't easy for a beginner or a teenager, the people who will keep bonsai alive as a hobby or an art form in the future.

 

[Adair M]

I remember when Matt Chroust gave moderator rights to Joanie Berkwitz. That was the end of BonsaiTALK. There is a tendency in the USA to treat kids and children with respect and love. This usually translates to I will never talk loud or spank my kids ever. Oh and by the way, my kid should get a participation trophy too. This place used to be a great place like bonsaiTalk was. Many of the same trouble people that were there came here also and over the years there have been a calvacade of experts that talk a lot but never show a tree or have none even remotely ready to show. I have taken maples down to bare trunk stumps and built them into showable trees in less than five years here. There are some that are very vocal that have worked on trees ten years and it still looks like a young nursery tree.

So... what’s your point?

 

[substratum]

Overzealous moderators can ruin a forum quicker that members with a high jerk factor, IMHO. That's what IGNORE features are for. Though forum members that are compulsively abusive or psycho, should be suspended or banned. It can be a fine balance between freedom, civil discourse, order, rabble rule, and chaos, LOL!

 

[Bananaman]

It isn't easy for a beginner or a teenager, the people who will keep bonsai alive as a hobby or an art form in the future.

Why is this important?

 

[Cable]

Are you asking why it is important to keep the hobby alive or why it should or shouldn’t be easy for n00bs to get involved?

 

[Bananaman]

Are you asking why it is important to keep the hobby alive or why it should or shouldn’t be easy for n00bs to get involved?

This is called an exercise in reading comprehension. When you make a reply and quote the text you are responding to, it should be as clear as water...right?

EDIT: on second thought maybe this was a two part answer from Michael, so in the spirit of the forum I will say keeping the hobby alive. My apoligies.

 

[Bananaman]

This is called an exercise in reading comprehension. When you make a reply and quote the text you are responding to, it should be as clear as water...right?

EDIT: on second thought maybe this was a two part answer from Michael, so in the spirit of the forum I will say keeping the hobby alive. My apoligies.

As for noobs...they are a part of the American culture. From collecting coins to restoring classic cars. I am a journeyman carpenter, I did my apprenticeship and toted a whole lot of water to get where I am. I've earned the right to be an ass hole. Same in bonsai. If you are on the bottom rungs you got a lot of water ahead of you to tote if you wish to do this on a high level. For some the toting of water is as easy as handing out large gobs of money. Everything in life is relative. Bonsai is no different. There will always be haves and have nots.