Deciduous yamadori in the US

[JudyB]

The time to wire deciduous trees is in spring when the new shoots are soft and plyable

Don't let the three maples I just wired see this....(or the elm I'm getting ready to wire)
I (and I know of plenty of others) wire in the winter. Not to say that I do not wire during the growing season at times, but my main wiring of D trees has always been done in the winter.

 

[rockm]

I don't see any difference between American and Japanese bonsai. I just see good bonsai and bad bonsai.

I like the tree in question a lot, I just think it needs a lot more refinement.

This is a cop out. There are distinct differences between American and Japanese bonsai, just as there are clear distinctions between Chinese penjing (puntsai), Korean bonsai and Japanese bonsai. It's unfair to judge penjing by bonsai "standards" and vice versa. There are differences, just as there are differences between accomplished "American" trees and Japanese trees.

Japanese trees are technical, strict, disciplined and spare.

Well-executed American bonsai-including all those spendy collected western conifers --don't have the technical achievement the best Japanese bonsai have. To accumulate that kind of knowledge and pass it on effectively takes a century (or maybe less, as modern Japanese bonsai as we know it now is less than 100 years old)

American bonsai (and most other western countries) are closer to freer- more expressionistic Penjing than bonsai. Chinese Penjing is not about the tree, so much as it is about the feeling the tree projects. The emphasis isn't on technical perfection, but on how well a tree expresses feeling.

No doubt some will say this kind of thing has become an excuse for "bad" bonsai. While there are certainly bazillions of awful Western bonsai out there, the truest expression of it (from the likes of Walter Pall, Guy Guidry, Ryan Neal, and other folks like them) offer wilder, more powerful, unbridled (and yeah unrefined) images than the Japan can imagine or create. In its purest technical form in Japan, bonsai has lost a lot of it power. Some of it is repetitive and not very creative, but it's technically perfect and refined.

 

[johng]

I assure you that defending a fellow Boonie (although I think Andrew works with Michael, not Boon) has nothing to do with my motivation for responding. And I hope you've not found my rhetoric to be either brainwashed or arrogant even when I disagree with a point of view.

As I said, I have always appreciated your content....because it does not come off as brainwashed or arrogant...I am glad that your purpose was not defending...Andrew said nothing about this tree however...

As I said before, it was the notion that I understood from your response - that cutting back and creating taper was somehow un-American that led me to comment.

Just to clarify, I was never questioning the technique or how American or un-American it is...just its use with this specific tree....sorry you misread that...

As to the tree, I certainly think it has lots of room to get better....Even had a good conversation with Kurt about it at the recent show. I just hope he is able to respect the history of this tree and not destroy it trying to fit into a Japanese mold.

 

[A Random User]

That is total BS...Open your eyes and quit being a parrot...if I bothered to show you some pics, I am quite sure you could accurately differentiate between trees from the US and Japan...so statements like that only reveal your inability to have your own thoughts.

If you are lucky, someday you will realize that anyone can be a parrot...it only requires internet access. if you want to add something to bonsai, which it is obvious that you desperately do, do something on your own, be original, be creative(how many times do I have to say it?)...or just keep building your internet master status..you are well on your way...maybe you and sorce can form a club??

Me and John don't always agree on much...

Here I would say I have to agree. Sorry Andrew.... but, you are beginning to remind me of Dario. An individual who knew everything about bonsai, has since went on to host his own FB bonsai page and is the master of his own thinking... yet, has only been doing bonsai about 3 or 4 years, and was the first to post as an authority on any subject he could find info regarding it, with a quick Google search. .. which begs the question, should the Google be considered a Bonsai Master? Dario would probably think so.

I understand your enthusiasm Andrew... and the need to be a part of something as great as Bonsai... however, continual postings of threads regarding what some might consider masters, (if their is such a thing?) And their words... Does not make you a master or make their words yours...

If it did, then Anyone can pull off posts from the internet and would be considered an authority on the subject... which would be just wonderful and just what we need, a whole bunch of self proclaimed Internet prophets.

I would suggest more work on trees and less work on the computer. Put your money where your mouth is. I post trees almost on a daily basis... and have yet to see any trees of yours. The Internet is a place where anyone can come and talk... as it should be... everyone's opinions are welcomed. It would be nice however if those opinions were actually yours... mine are.

 

[A Random User]

Not necessarily a deciduous... Seeing they don't drop their leaves... however this buttonwood was collected here in Florida has as much deadwood as most of the trees that were in the Cup and is over a century old. I work on plenty of material that is collected that has just as much interest as any tree of those of the conifers that are the big ticket now... which makes one wonder why the subject is even a question? Perhaps, just a lack of understanding what America has to offer? I can see how this might be the case, if folks only think bonsai exists in Seattle?

Oh, side note... this is me being silly, posing with my tree as my European friends always seem to do... I took this one for my buddy Smoke, who a while back said I never posted anything, which boggled the mind seeing I posted all the time... figured if I put my face with my tree, he could figure out what he was talking about... sometimes we have to help out our older folks, their memory is not so good.

 

[jeanluc83]

this is me being silly, posing with my tree as my European friends always seem to do...

I have liked that tree since you first posted it but I have to say it is much larger than I had imagined.

 

[A Random User]

Don't let the three maples I just wired see this....(or the elm I'm getting ready to wire)
I (and I know of plenty of others) wire in the winter. Not to say that I do not wire during the growing season at times, but my main wiring of D trees has always been done in the winter.

I wire pretty much year around, seeing that I live in a climate that for the most part is year around...

With that said... I would put forth the following argument as to why one should not be perhaps wiring in spring... and would agree with you.

First off, seeing that often a piece of material is at it's fastest growing state in spring, any wire placed on it is going to bite in very fast and will have to be carefully watched, unless one wants it too... some tropicals I let do this on purpose.

Second, seeing that often new growth is just emerging, often if one is wiring in spring you end up knocking off or doing damage to alot of this young growth in the process. Which us not to big of a problem if the material will easily shoot it out again, or if it is foliage on branches that are secondary and will not be needed in the design till the final image. Like if on is still in the design stage... but would suck if what is knocked off would of been the perfect place for a new branch.

Somethings to consider when spring wiring.

 

[A Random User]

I have liked that tree since you first posted it but I have to say it is much larger than I had imagined.

Thanks, I appreciate it! I have only been working it a couple of years now. Once I get everything where I need it, I will begin to work on leaf size reduction... so in a couple of years, possibly less... will be ready for show, not the 40 years everyone says non conifers take.

 

[A Random User]

This Ligustrum was collected not from the wild, but from a landscape planting, which questions if it should be considered a "yamadori", or not... my own personal perspective is who cares... it is not a deciduous either seeing it does not drop it's leaves...

It is however over a hundred years old, has a massive hollowed trunk and deadwood, and is gigantic in size!

It had to be severely cut down to size just to fit into the 20 inch wide pot that I put it into! It eventually will go into a slightly larger pot for its a tad small, but all I had at the time and needed to begin the process if making it a bonsai.

Just started this one this year... will need a couple of years of getting branches where I need them and some ramification, which will decrease leaf size. Again, not the 40 years...

What I think is being missed with this discussion is that if one has a piece of ancient yamadori or old massive stock such as this and those conifers of the Cup... one does not have to often spend years upon years developing to bring the tree to a stage of being shown.

Yes, with more time the tree is only going to improve and get better as the years go by... but, if one is trying to make a tree that is old, rugged and been abused... it is far faster and easier to pull off then if one is trying to make a perfect un flawed tree. Flaws are what are required of ancient rugged trees... not what are required of ancient looking maples let's say...

So, it is understandable how a collected conifer can be show ready in a very short time, and how perhaps a maple might take 10 times that... This is comparing Apples to Oranges! I think we need to understand this and understand that totally different amounts if time are going to be required of each.

I can style a juniper make it rugged, like it has been through hell and back, and in a year put it in a show. I cannot do this with a tree that needs to take time to heal over wounds... will not happen.

Has little to do with whether or not I am Japanese, or if they are better at the Art than we here in the states are... but more to do with one factor, time... They have been doing it longer, so yeah, makes perfect sense why trees from Japan might be further along.

If one wants to speed up the process, style a tree in not a perfect manner... instead of healing over those scars, turn them into features... spend your effort on branching.

 

[rockm]

Yes. Your inexperience is clearly showing. That's because you roam the WOODS. Trees in a forest are seldom much for collecting; they're straight, tall, straining for light ABOVE them. It is trees on rocky balds, trees at the edges of the woods, trees on the banks of streams or lakes, etc. leaning out for light. It's trees that are favored by and browsed by deer, or cattle; exposed trees that have been damaged by fire, snow or ice.

The trick in finding worthwhile deciduous trees is looking for them in places like Jim mentions.

However, you --AREN'T looking for completely dwarfed natural bonsai, like Western conifers that need only a branch reduction and a wiring to be show ready... Deciduous trees like that are mostly figments of Ralph Macchio and Pat Morita's imaginations. Naturally dwarfed deciduous trees mostly don't exist. you can sometimes find them in pastures or woodland that are heavily HEAVILY grazed by cows and deer, though.

If you're looking for natural dwarfs along nature trails in national parks, you also might want to keep an eye out for bigfoot, a unicorn or a chupacabra. You have equal chances of finding all of those.

What you have to learn to look for is a nice initial 6-20 inches of trunk (upright, slanting, or whatever) that has a bit of taper and some character ("muscle, rough bark, etc.) Next you look at how closely the tree you're looking at pushes branches and leaves. That can give a feeling for how it will respond to hard pruning.

This can take some doing. Sometimes the real nebari on a candidate tree is six inches under leaves, muck, or topsoil.

You also have to learn which species frequent which parts of the wood -- bonsaiable species don't all grow in the same spots. Hornbeam grow along stream beds, Beech grow in better drained upland locations. Elms can be found just about everywhere. Roses, bittersweet, wisteria (American and Chinese) tend to grow in open fields up onto trees, etc.
Know your species preferences...

 

[M. Frary]

I have liked that tree since you first posted it but I have to say it is much larger than I had imagined.

much larger

It's the hat. Makes all of his trees look large. This tree is a shohin.

 

[Vin]

It's the hat. Makes all of his trees look large. This tree is a shohin.

Yeah, he's always got a hat on. (yes, I said a hat on)

 

[M. Frary]

, I said a hat on)

What else would you say?

 

[Vin]

What else would you say?

I don't know, maybe a "HARD hat ON"

 

[Adair M]

Guys, can we agree that there are different styles of bonsai? Refined vs Naturalistic?

Just as in music there's Classical and Rock. (and many others.

One style is not necessarily "better" than the other. They're just different.

Doesn't mean you can't enjoy both.

You can do both. Just the same instrument can be used as a both a violin and as a fiddle.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

This is a cop out. There are distinct differences between American and Japanese bonsai, just as there are clear distinctions between Chinese penjing (puntsai), Korean bonsai and Japanese bonsai. It's unfair to judge penjing by bonsai "standards" and vice versa. There are differences, just as there are differences between accomplished "American" trees and Japanese trees.

Japanese trees are technical, strict, disciplined and spare.

Well-executed American bonsai-including all those spendy collected western conifers --don't have the technical achievement the best Japanese bonsai have. To accumulate that kind of knowledge and pass it on effectively takes a century (or maybe less, as modern Japanese bonsai as we know it now is less than 100 years old)

American bonsai (and most other western countries) are closer to freer- more expressionistic Penjing than bonsai. Chinese Penjing is not about the tree, so much as it is about the feeling the tree projects. The emphasis isn't on technical perfection, but on how well a tree expresses feeling.

No doubt some will say this kind of thing has become an excuse for "bad" bonsai. While there are certainly bazillions of awful Western bonsai out there, the truest expression of it (from the likes of Walter Pall, Guy Guidry, Ryan Neal, and other folks like them) offer wilder, more powerful, unbridled (and yeah unrefined) images than the Japan can imagine or create. In its purest technical form in Japan, bonsai has lost a lot of it power. Some of it is repetitive and not very creative, but it's technically perfect and refined.

I really like this comment plus your previous ones. Like you said lots of Korean Hornbeams in Japan are centuries old, they were centuries old when work started on them so if anyone says they where grown from seed well we both know how likely that is.
If people are going to be strict in their definitions the Penjing from China and Bunjae from Korea are not "Bonsai" and merely glorified house plants (and yes many Japanese feel exactly like that) however even the Japanese concept of Bonsai has changed with a younger generation breaking away from the purist idea of as what some may call "Cookie Cutter Bonsai". No disrespect to the Japanese Bonsai Masters, they are artists no doubt about it and I would give my two front teeth for some of that skill however, as it stands they work with their traditional species for the most part.

FOR THE REST OF YOU

What you can do with many oriental species differs from Western species. In Korea and China they use many species that are considered unsuitable by Japanese standards.....ummm they still make amazing trees. Penjing and Bunjae Masters are just as skilled.

Saying there is no such thing as a Western form of bonsai is like saying there is no Western Classical art. Clearly we have Western, Middle Eastern, Oriental and various other forms of Classical art, do we not? If you got a few painters from those different cultures to paint a mountain do you imagine you would get the same picture? Of course you wouldn't get the same picture from even twins in the same culture who studied under the same teacher.
Should bonsai be any different from that? Of course not. What is more, unlike other art forms, you have living entities with different growths rates, strengths, weaknesses, lighting requirements, nutrient requirements, humidity requirements etc.. Biology is not pliable to a cookie cutter approach.

I hate to break it to you....even if you study under a master in Japan for 10 years they may not (more than likely) consider your work to be Japanese unless you are exceptionally good. Why bother? Make good bonsai from local species, that water elm is gorgeous.

Here are some unrefined *(by certain individuals ideals) Penjing Black Pine

 

[BunjaeKorea]

View attachment 89205

Not necessarily a deciduous... Seeing they don't drop their leaves... however this buttonwood was collected here in Florida has as much deadwood as most of the trees that were in the Cup and is over a century old. I work on plenty of material that is collected that has just as much interest as any tree of those of the conifers that are the big ticket now... which makes one wonder why the subject is even a question? Perhaps, just a lack of understanding what America has to offer? I can see how this might be the case, if folks only think bonsai exists in Seattle?

Oh, side note... this is me being silly, posing with my tree as my European friends always seem to do... I took this one for my buddy Smoke, who a while back said I never posted anything, which boggled the mind seeing I posted all the time... figured if I put my face with my tree, he could figure out what he was talking about... sometimes we have to help out our older folks, their memory is not so good.

Be silent Sawgrass everyone knows only Pine and Juniper make good bonsai....lol just having a laugh, love that tree. Could you tell me the species name?

 

[garywood]

Guys, can we agree that there are different styles of bonsai? Refined vs Naturalistic?

Just as in music there's Classical and Rock. (and many others.

One style is not necessarily "better" than the other. They're just different.

Doesn't mean you can't enjoy both.

You can do both. Just the same instrument can be used as a both a violin and as a fiddle.

I hear you Adair. The supposition that American bonsai is defined is a bit premature. Maybe 10 -50- 100 years from now but we are still in infancy. There is a continuum with each on either end and I suspect American bonsai will be somewhere in between. This type of discussion now and in the future will be part of defining where "American" bonsai will be. Will it change anyone's aesthetic preferences? I doubt it but it is food for thought.

 

[crust]

Thanks for the clarification. Do you know the Latin name by any chance? Would like to look it up.

Pinus Resinosa

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Pinus Resinosa

Thanks for that!