Collecting. With or without permission?

[rockm]

Thanks Jason,

Your post is very instructive and accurate.

However, BLM and Federally-owned land is not that common here in the Eastern US. National Forest and National Parks are. It is explicitly forbidden to remove ANYTHING from those facilities, from plants and animals, down to rocks. There's a quirky set of rules when it comes to collecting in those holdings. It basically requires the collector to seek out the district forest manager and ask. Collection is, apparently, subject to that manager's discretion.

The collection advice for private land, however is as accurate on the right side of the Mississippi and it is on the left. Be neighborly, be friendly, don't be a jerk, fill in your holes, don't spook the cattle, and don't spit your Mail Pouch out on the landowner's front porch....

 

[Attila Soos]

Wow, what a crazy thread here....

It is very simple to collect anywhere in the US. There are a few things to do and they are all free and very easy to do.

Federal Land..... go to the Forestry dept near the area you want to collect. Ask them for a CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT. They are free and you can collect trees with them. Every national forest has them. You can get them to collect rocks, trees, basically anything in the forest. There are guidelines with these but for the most part it will get you what you need.

State land...... BLM, same thing, they offer permits to collect trees. You might have to sit with the land use director like I have in the past and talk with him a bit. But that was because I told him I was looking for small stunted, twisty, Dr. Seuss trees. He wanted to make sure I stayed out of the protected areas. Again, free permit to collect trees on state land.

Private land, super easy......knock on the door and be a likable person. Let them know that you are looking for a certain type of tree for your landscape or around your pond. If you get a good vibe then let them know you will be using it for bonsai. But the only thing they can do is say no. Big deal. Most times they say yes. But it is all in how you come across, if they think you are a shy creepy guy then you will get a big NO very quick.

That covers all land. Really getting the nod to collect is easy.....finding a tree worthy of collection is the hard part.

Letters won't work, they won't take the time to read it and will throw it away after the first sentence. Be personable and upfront.

Happy collecting.....

Hey, Jason, that's great advice, no-nonsense.
Is there a website you recommend for getting a detailed map of the West Coast, showing which is Federal, State, or Private land. I imagine that a color-coded map would be the best for this purpose.

 

[Smoke]

Wow, what a crazy thread here....

It is very simple to collect anywhere in the US. There are a few things to do and they are all free and very easy to do.

Federal Land..... go to the Forestry dept near the area you want to collect. Ask them for a CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT. They are free and you can collect trees with them. Every national forest has them. You can get them to collect rocks, trees, basically anything in the forest. There are guidelines with these but for the most part it will get you what you need.

State land...... BLM, same thing, they offer permits to collect trees. You might have to sit with the land use director like I have in the past and talk with him a bit. But that was because I told him I was looking for small stunted, twisty, Dr. Seuss trees. He wanted to make sure I stayed out of the protected areas. Again, free permit to collect trees on state land.

Private land, super easy......knock on the door and be a likable person. Let them know that you are looking for a certain type of tree for your landscape or around your pond. If you get a good vibe then let them know you will be using it for bonsai. But the only thing they can do is say no. Big deal. Most times they say yes. But it is all in how you come across, if they think you are a shy creepy guy then you will get a big NO very quick.

That covers all land. Really getting the nod to collect is easy.....finding a tree worthy of collection is the hard part.

Letters won't work, they won't take the time to read it and will throw it away after the first sentence. Be personable and upfront.

Happy collecting.....

Might want to change that first line from the US to Oregon. As in: "It is very simple to collect anywhere in Oregon.

Not that simple in a state like California or many others that have very strict rules about collecting anything live.

The Fresno bonsai society has had conditional use permits before for non profit educational field trips for removal of live trees for examination. You have convienantly left out alot of stipulations that make conditional use permits almost totaly useless unless one wishes to stretch the rules. Once again we are left with moral decisions nes paux?

BLM land also comes with restrictions. For over 50 years Harry Hirao has taken countless thousands to hundreds of acres of BLM land that we had permission to dig on. BLM could care less what was taken out. In fact each year when fire breaks were cut and access roads maintained, the piles of California juniper ripped from the earth would be piled along the raodside like garbage.

Nov. 2008 BLM decides that the ridge is to good for windmachines and this green move had spilled over into the bonsai world. BLM said no more people. So it is written...So it shall be done.

BTW, anyone have 500 acres of land in Tehachipi that they wouldn't mind if I dig a few junipers?

 

[JasonG]

Ok, I will say that National Forest land is easy to get permission on to collect in Northern California, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Colorado and Wyoming. Central and Southern California I am sure are harder to get permission.

Conditional Use permits do have some guidlines to follow and each National Forest District has different guidlines. I have collected in areas where you can collect anywhere except protected forests, Indian land. Others want you to only go in the road prisim, not within 100' of water and not near Highways. Yes, the rules get stretched here by everyone who collects in these parts but that falls into thge grey zone, lol!!

For you east coasters....if you have National Forest land call them up and ask them about conditional use permits. It won't be anything lost if they say no. The best way to explain it to them is that you are looking for small "Alpine" style trees for you private landscape. Everyone working there will understand that much better then if you tell them bonsai.

As for a map showing BLM vs. Forest land.....The best maps I have found have been forest service maps as they will outline the difference in land. But if you know you are going to Bend Oregon for example then I would make my first stop the BLM and Forest service to buy maps, get permits and try to pick their brains about where to go, what to look out for and where certain species grow. They really are there to help you and as long asyou aren't a turd they will most of the time give you all the advice and direction you need.

Jason

 

[Smoke]

......and as long asyou aren't a turd they will.....
Jason

Best line in the whole thread

 

[Smoke]

Ok, I will say that National Forest land is easy to get permission on to collect in Northern California, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Colorado and Wyoming. Central and Southern California I am sure are harder to get permission.

Conditional Use permits do have some guidlines to follow and each National Forest District has different guidlines. I have collected in areas where you can collect anywhere except protected forests, Indian land. Others want you to only go in the road prisim, not within 100' of water and not near Highways. Yes, the rules get stretched here by everyone who collects in these parts but that falls into thge grey zone, lol!!

Jason

That is really the point of the discussion though isn't it. The grey zone. No one hardly complains when rules are followed, it's the stretching of the rules that can ruin what we still have.

There will be a time....

 

[treebeard55]

... it's the stretching of the rules that can ruin what we still have.
...

Very well said. Where's the smiley for "Applause?"

 

[rockm]

"For you east coasters....if you have National Forest land call them up and ask them about conditional use permits. It won't be anything lost if they say no. The best way to explain it to them is that you are looking for small "Alpine" style trees for you private landscape. Everyone working there will understand that much better then if you tell them bonsai."

You're joking, Right? yeah, I'll call the ranger in the Dry RIver District and tell him I want "alpine" trees for my landscape. I can hear the guffaws now "Y'all want whut now? Well, shoot. We got Fir, we got oak, we even got hickry pines, I ain't heard a no Alpines 'round here...."

 

[TheSteve]

Rock if you just call the ranger station and have a discussion about trees in general normally that is all it takes. No need to use a bunch of lingo that will probably make you sound like a pompous ass in their eyes. I just called a ranger station a couple of days ago and had a very helpful discussion on road conditions and how I could or couldn't access the very places I want to collect. They not only let me collect they help me find a access route as well. Don't sell them short, they are far more helpful than you believe.

 

[treebeard55]

The thing I love best about this site are the long threads with 50 posts or more. It kind of reminds of Abbott and Costello doing the "Whos on first" routine. I just read the first post and the last post and 100% of the time they have absolutly nothing to do with each other. It makes for great entertainment.

Ciao,
Harry

Then there was the time that a spammer somehow slipped a post thru the filters at BonsaiChat. It took a day or two for everyone to realize that this wasn't just a guy with poor English. Once we did, we had enormous fun for a while.

Here's the link -- enjoy.

http://www.bonsaichat.net/general-bonsai-discussion-questions/508-question-plastic-windows.html

 

[Gandalph]

Wow, what a crazy thread here....


Federal Land..... go to the Forestry dept near the area you want to collect. Ask them for a CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT. They are free and you can collect trees with them. Every national forest has them. You can get them to collect rocks, trees, basically anything in the forest. There are guidelines with these but for the most part it will get you what you need.

State land...... BLM, same thing, they offer permits to collect trees. You might have to sit with the land use director like I have in the past and talk with him a bit. But that was because I told him I was looking for small stunted, twisty, Dr. Seuss trees. He wanted to make sure I stayed out of the protected areas. Again, free permit to collect trees on state land.

Private land, super easy......knock on the door and be a likable person. Let them know that you are looking for a certain type of tree for your landscape or around your pond. If you get a good vibe then let them know you will be using it for bonsai. But the only thing they can do is say no. Big deal. Most times they say yes. But it is all in how you come across, if they think you are a shy creepy guy then you will get a big NO very quick.

That covers all land. Really getting the nod to collect is easy.....finding a tree worthy of collection is the hard part.

Letters won't work, they won't take the time to read it and will throw it away after the first sentence. Be personable and upfront.

Happy collecting.....

Would you be able to direct for that source in Illinois? Specifically, Pere Marquette State Park in Grafton Illinois??

Thanks in advance

 

[buddhamonk]

would you be able to direct for that source in illinois? Specifically, pere marquette state park in grafton illinois??

Thanks in advance

lol =)

must be a joke...

 

[rockm]

I post this reluctantly, since all I did was a Google search for the contact info. This is where most people start. The people who have managed to get permits have gotten them through their own legwork in their areas. I'd start with a call to the contact number listed.

There are no shortcuts. We can't give out magic contact info. If you want the permit, it's really up to you to find out what works in your area:

http://dnr.state.il.us/LANDS/landmgt/parks/R4/PEREMARQ.HTM

 

[Vance Wood]

I post this reluctantly, since all I did was a Google search for the contact info. This is where most people start. The people who have managed to get permits have gotten them through their own legwork in their areas. I'd start with a call to the contact number listed.

There are no shortcuts. We can't give out magic contact info. If you want the permit, it's really up to you to find out what works in your area:

http://dnr.state.il.us/LANDS/landmgt/parks/R4/PEREMARQ.HTM

You're right, and I do not intend to impugn those who ask such questions, but there is one thing that has become eminently clear over the last ten years or so; many who use the Internet and its forums are lead to assume that it is an end game substitute for doing your own home work and due diligence. In short; we are at risk of forgetting how to think for ourselves, finding it more convenient to ask someone else to provide the answers. I am not saying that it is wrong to ask such questions but when it comes to some of the details asked for in this post we return to the option I quoted you.

 

[Gandalph]

I post this reluctantly, since all I did was a Google search for the contact info. This is where most people start. The people who have managed to get permits have gotten them through their own legwork in their areas. I'd start with a call to the contact number listed.

There are no shortcuts. We can't give out magic contact info. If you want the permit, it's really up to you to find out what works in your area:

http://dnr.state.il.us/LANDS/landmgt/parks/R4/PEREMARQ.HTM

Sorry for the furor caused. I am not a stranger to legwork. I merely thought that someone might have the contact information you provided and I thank you for that.

 

[rockm]

Gandalph,

Not really a furor. Not a problem. The information you requested is hard to come by in most areas. Most of us collectors have to do the grunt work of finding the right person to ask and asking them in the right way. You have to start at the bottom and work your way up to find the right person to ask. If you get lucky, you might find someone who knows what you're after.

Each park--especially state-owned parks--differ in what's allowed and what's not. This is also especially true of parks east of those "big square states." In the East and Midwest, things aren't as easy and collection can be a little trickier.

If I were you, I'd avoid mentioning "bonsai" right off the bat in asking for permission to dig trees. Asking about collecting trees for landscaping, ornamental use might be more prudent. Mentioning "bonsai" can create a mental image of you digging up a millenia old tree in a pristine area of the park, which ain't gonna happen...

 

[grizzlywon]

Wow, what a crazy thread here....

It is very simple to collect anywhere in the US. There are a few things to do and they are all free and very easy to do.

Federal Land..... go to the Forestry dept near the area you want to collect. Ask them for a CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT. They are free and you can collect trees with them.

Happy collecting.....

Ok, I will say that National Forest land is easy to get permission on to collect in Northern California, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Colorado and Wyoming. Central and Southern California I am sure are harder to get permission.

Conditional Use permits do have some guidlines to follow and each National Forest District has different guidlines...
Jason

Jason, i have searched on the National Forest web pages and can find not such permits for the parks near my house. I notice that in Northern CA there were some permits for collecting lava.

I also found this on a general forest service site. Is this the permit you are talking about?

http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/permits/forms.htm

How to get one: http://www.fs.fed.us/specialuses/documents/broch.htm

Al, will this work? My thought is that I will be denied?

 

[Boerboel313]

Always with permission, the tree belongs to someone. And taking a tree without because you know you will be turned down is still stealing.

How about this....I really want to collect a few of your trees you have in your yard, I know you'll say no, so do I just take them anyhow?

Doing that here would earn you an arse full of birdshot.


A word to the wise.... http://knowledgeofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=82



Will

Yes, but you don’t pay taxes on my land. State/ Federal BLM Land which I pay taxes on should allow me to harvest a certain number of trees a year (permitted of course), just the same as if I were a hunter. The problem lies in that it’s easier to get a permit to kill a wild animal then it is to obtain a permit to harvest a tree which in many cases will die anyway due to the mismanagement of state and federal land through forest fires. Ya ya, I know, Deer grow faster than trees and they are over populated and the deer populations need to be culled, but the cause of that is we keep over populating ourselves. I don’t hunt, but In my previous line of work we didn’t hunt anything that couldn’t shoot back.

 

[Frojo]

Boerboel, the anonymous user you replied to was Will Heath. He is not with us anymore. He is still in jail for illegally collecting trees. Read about it here. Heed the warning, don't let your collecting become an obsession.

 

[Boerboel313]

Lol. I guess he wasnt very good at it. My collection is very modest. All purchased or taken from property where I’ve had permission. I was making a point between hunting and collecting trees, and with Kalifornia being the worst offender. You can’t even collect driftwood off a beach. It’s utter BS.