Attila Soos
Omono
I know.
I wish people would have to kill every time they eat meat. Their perspective would change, big time.
Collecting. With or without permission?
- Thread starter Asus101
- Start date
I know.
I wish people would have to kill every time they eat meat. Their perspective would change, big time.
Attila, I understand what you are saying. I grew up in a small town back east during the Great Depression. My Dad did some hunting to augment the food supply.
Regarding giving the prey a fair chance. I used to work with a rugged old guy who liked to hunt wild boar. He didn't carry a gun. Only a knife and a bow and arrow.
Mike
Attila Soos
Omono
Hunting a wild boar with bow and arrow, and a knife - that sounds more like a sport, where both parties have something to lose. I can respect that. Much more than those wildlife "executions" where the poor thing has no chance at all.
Mike did you live with my Uncle Buster in Texas?
(That is the way he taught me to hunt)
Irene
The thing I love best about this site are the long threads with 50 posts or more. It kind of reminds of Abbott and Costello doing the "Whos on first" routine. I just read the first post and the last post and 100% of the time they have absolutly nothing to do with each other. It makes for great entertainment.
Ciao,
Harry
Ciao,
Harry
Asus101
Yamadori
I am hoping to change direction again soon to "Is caek better than pie?"
grizzlywon
Shohin
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I do not advocate breaking the law, but I think it is funny to see how pious some can become when it comes to this. I'm sure none of the people on this thread have ever got a speeding ticket or run a red light or rolled through a stop sign. But I won't go there. I guess it is true that speeding doesn't put a black eye on a specific art form. Unless you consider street racing an art form?
What frustrates me the most about this topic is how poorly our Gov (at least in CA) handles this. I am a hunter (I hunt poor defenseless bear) and I see year after year, areas of Forest land leveled with bulldozers and sometimes burned. Yet it is not possible to collect live trees in this area before or after!
Let me get this straight, I want to pay the CA gov money for a tree and they don't want my money! Even if its a tree that will be destroyed. I don't get it.
I know its a hassle for them too. But with our current budget problems they might be able to earn some money to keep police on the streets and teachers in the class room.
Just an idea. Maybe what our clubs need to do is educate the Forest Service etc?
What frustrates me the most about this topic is how poorly our Gov (at least in CA) handles this. I am a hunter (I hunt poor defenseless bear) and I see year after year, areas of Forest land leveled with bulldozers and sometimes burned. Yet it is not possible to collect live trees in this area before or after!
Let me get this straight, I want to pay the CA gov money for a tree and they don't want my money! Even if its a tree that will be destroyed. I don't get it.
I know its a hassle for them too. But with our current budget problems they might be able to earn some money to keep police on the streets and teachers in the class room.
Just an idea. Maybe what our clubs need to do is educate the Forest Service etc?
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
Here is a curveball for you Americans, much of what the federal government is now doing is illegal to begin with. So do we have to concern ourselves with laws that they have no right nor authority to pass?
Just food for thought mind you.
Just to make it easy for your all, focus on this Amendment:
===========
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
===========
What this does is limit the powers of the federal government to what is expressly spelled out in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Everything else is under State and Local jurisdiction.
(guess that rules out Obama firing the CEO of a public corporation)
Just food for thought mind you.
Just to make it easy for your all, focus on this Amendment:
===========
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
===========
What this does is limit the powers of the federal government to what is expressly spelled out in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Everything else is under State and Local jurisdiction.
(guess that rules out Obama firing the CEO of a public corporation)
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You are correct in your understanding of the Constitution. The problem is that the concepts and contents of the Constitution are so poorly taught in the schools of today most of the young people who roll over and take government take-overs in the arse with a smile don't even understand what is happen to them. They are more concerned with saving the Planet and sticking it to the rich white guys that run all of the corporations, getting religious people out of politics, and making sure that any and all perversion is accepted as normal and granted all of the rights and benefits that befit their special status. In other words--- reparations in one form or another.
So what does any of this have to do with bonsai? I have been saying for years that it will not be too long before gathering bonsai material from the wild will be prohibited by government. It all falls into the category of the rather stupid but accurate proverb asking the question why does a cat lick it's back side? Because it can! We have allowed government to become that arse licking cat, able to do anything it wants because no one will resist, and it can.
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rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Oh for crying out loud...
The reason it's difficult to get a damn permit to dig bonsai IS NOT GOVERNMENT'S fault. It's not a constitutional failing. It's because we want something very obscure, unknown and well, mystifying.
Hunting permits, well everyone knows what hunting is...logging,well same thing.
"You wanna do whut?" is the most common response from Federal or local officials to a request to dig trees.
All officials here is "I wanna dig up a tree." Their experience with plant collection is clouded by abuse of the practice (especially here in the East) for plants like Ginseng and mushrooms--if you don't think this practice and plant poaching isn't significant, do a news search on Google. Ginseng markets are lucrative and markets for wild mushrooms are also money makers.
So, if you get a quizzical, or non-response about collecting for bonsai, you have to be persistent. Keep asking, educate the official. Bring photos, show them books and other info on what bonsai is.
DON'T throw your hands up and claim it's all government's fault because of some Constitutional clause or idiot bureaucrat. The majority of people I've talked to at National Parks, etc. LOVE the outdoors. Most truly understand, when the subject is explained, bonsai and its appeal on a gut level. Some might even point you to the best places to collect.
And for what it's worth, this statement:
What this does is limit the powers of the federal government to what is expressly spelled out in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Everything else is under State and Local jurisdiction.
has been the heart of a long and continuing struggle between state and Federal government. The Constitution is INTENTIONALLY vague on the lines between Federal, State and individual power.That's why there are Federal and State Court systems, overseen by the Supreme Court. The Constitutional framers intentionally set up that struggle and left it for us to work out--it's never settled and never clear. The framers understood that setting such clear lines would prove to be inflexible and stifling.
The reason it's difficult to get a damn permit to dig bonsai IS NOT GOVERNMENT'S fault. It's not a constitutional failing. It's because we want something very obscure, unknown and well, mystifying.
Hunting permits, well everyone knows what hunting is...logging,well same thing.
"You wanna do whut?" is the most common response from Federal or local officials to a request to dig trees.
All officials here is "I wanna dig up a tree." Their experience with plant collection is clouded by abuse of the practice (especially here in the East) for plants like Ginseng and mushrooms--if you don't think this practice and plant poaching isn't significant, do a news search on Google. Ginseng markets are lucrative and markets for wild mushrooms are also money makers.
So, if you get a quizzical, or non-response about collecting for bonsai, you have to be persistent. Keep asking, educate the official. Bring photos, show them books and other info on what bonsai is.
DON'T throw your hands up and claim it's all government's fault because of some Constitutional clause or idiot bureaucrat. The majority of people I've talked to at National Parks, etc. LOVE the outdoors. Most truly understand, when the subject is explained, bonsai and its appeal on a gut level. Some might even point you to the best places to collect.
And for what it's worth, this statement:
What this does is limit the powers of the federal government to what is expressly spelled out in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Everything else is under State and Local jurisdiction.
has been the heart of a long and continuing struggle between state and Federal government. The Constitution is INTENTIONALLY vague on the lines between Federal, State and individual power.That's why there are Federal and State Court systems, overseen by the Supreme Court. The Constitutional framers intentionally set up that struggle and left it for us to work out--it's never settled and never clear. The framers understood that setting such clear lines would prove to be inflexible and stifling.
daniel
Mame
Does anyone know if there is actually a way to get a permit from the gov't to collect on state property? Just curious. I don't want to do it, but I figured I'd ask.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You put in a request in writing. Sometimes you can just go and ask one of the park rangers. In response to Marks opinion; if you collect somewhere and someone comes and arrests you that someone is government and or one of its agents, even if it is a low level agent. You will be fined, or taken to court (that's government) but in the case of Michigan it could be worse. The DNR in Michigan can take your tree, your car, and maybe even your entire collection if you can not prove provenance---and then throw you in jail. Oh---almost forgot----they carry guns too.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"In response to Marks opinion; if you collect somewhere and someone comes and arrests you that someone is government and or one of its agents, even if it is a low level agent. You will be fined, or taken to court (that's government) but in the case of Michigan it could be worse. The DNR in Michigan can take your tree, your car, and maybe even your entire collection if you can not prove provenance---and then throw you in jail. Oh---almost forgot----they carry guns too."
I don't really see your point. If you don't have a permit, I assume digging a tree on state property breaks the law. All the outcomes you mention stem from violating a law or regulation. Also, law enforcement can take you to jail even if they ignore your permit, but they can't hold you for long without charges.
If you seek a permit, or written permission, and show that permission if challenged (much like hunting licenses are required to be displayed) no one is going to haul you anywhere. That's the point, here, not Big Bad Government persecution of bonsaiists...There is no such thing.
The notion these "low level agents" will seize your car or house is rather alarmist. That kind of stuff is alot of fuss (not to mention paperwork--which is the bane of law enforcement officers everywhere) for a minor offense. However,m IF you're collecting tons of stuff without permit AND selling it--which would be poaching--you might expect that kind of treatment. If you're poaching, then you probably deserve what you get.
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I don't really see your point. If you don't have a permit, I assume digging a tree on state property breaks the law. All the outcomes you mention stem from violating a law or regulation. Also, law enforcement can take you to jail even if they ignore your permit, but they can't hold you for long without charges.
If you seek a permit, or written permission, and show that permission if challenged (much like hunting licenses are required to be displayed) no one is going to haul you anywhere. That's the point, here, not Big Bad Government persecution of bonsaiists...There is no such thing.
The notion these "low level agents" will seize your car or house is rather alarmist. That kind of stuff is alot of fuss (not to mention paperwork--which is the bane of law enforcement officers everywhere) for a minor offense. However,m IF you're collecting tons of stuff without permit AND selling it--which would be poaching--you might expect that kind of treatment. If you're poaching, then you probably deserve what you get.
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milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
Please show me Constitutional authority for "Government" property. Please show me authority for Federal Law enforcement personnel. You won't find it because it is not legal.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Jeezus
yeah, don't pay your taxes, hold up on your ranch in S. Dakota...Yadda Yadda Yadda. I'm sorry, I'm a Republican, but Jeez, it's a permit to dig a tree, for Gawd's sake. Posse commitatus is SUCH a conversation killer...
yeah, don't pay your taxes, hold up on your ranch in S. Dakota...Yadda Yadda Yadda. I'm sorry, I'm a Republican, but Jeez, it's a permit to dig a tree, for Gawd's sake. Posse commitatus is SUCH a conversation killer...
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
Like I said just food for thought. You take a firm stand on your "Inaliable Rights" and folks will call you an extremist. Then the Govt. will send in federal "law" enforcement, kill you and burn your house down with no trial. Then make up some story so the common folk will not question them.
Not trying to kill the conversation but just wondering if laws are the only reason for us not to collect but the laws have no "legal" authority, do we still have to follow them?
My original point was one of actually using logic and ethics when collecting. *gasp* Imagine that, ethics in today's world.
The FBI can knock down your door, ransack the house and then find out they were at the wrong address and just leave with I'm sorry and you're sh*t out of luck. The only changes I've seen in the last twenty years is the IRS has been forced to modify their aggressive behavior, they no longer pull you out of your car at an intersection. There is video tape of them doing that very thing.
Harry
Harry
Wow, what a crazy thread here....
It is very simple to collect anywhere in the US. There are a few things to do and they are all free and very easy to do.
Federal Land..... go to the Forestry dept near the area you want to collect. Ask them for a CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT. They are free and you can collect trees with them. Every national forest has them. You can get them to collect rocks, trees, basically anything in the forest. There are guidelines with these but for the most part it will get you what you need.
State land...... BLM, same thing, they offer permits to collect trees. You might have to sit with the land use director like I have in the past and talk with him a bit. But that was because I told him I was looking for small stunted, twisty, Dr. Seuss trees. He wanted to make sure I stayed out of the protected areas. Again, free permit to collect trees on state land.
Private land, super easy......knock on the door and be a likable person. Let them know that you are looking for a certain type of tree for your landscape or around your pond. If you get a good vibe then let them know you will be using it for bonsai. But the only thing they can do is say no. Big deal. Most times they say yes. But it is all in how you come across, if they think you are a shy creepy guy then you will get a big NO very quick.
That covers all land. Really getting the nod to collect is easy.....finding a tree worthy of collection is the hard part.
Letters won't work, they won't take the time to read it and will throw it away after the first sentence. Be personable and upfront.
Happy collecting.....
It is very simple to collect anywhere in the US. There are a few things to do and they are all free and very easy to do.
Federal Land..... go to the Forestry dept near the area you want to collect. Ask them for a CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT. They are free and you can collect trees with them. Every national forest has them. You can get them to collect rocks, trees, basically anything in the forest. There are guidelines with these but for the most part it will get you what you need.
State land...... BLM, same thing, they offer permits to collect trees. You might have to sit with the land use director like I have in the past and talk with him a bit. But that was because I told him I was looking for small stunted, twisty, Dr. Seuss trees. He wanted to make sure I stayed out of the protected areas. Again, free permit to collect trees on state land.
Private land, super easy......knock on the door and be a likable person. Let them know that you are looking for a certain type of tree for your landscape or around your pond. If you get a good vibe then let them know you will be using it for bonsai. But the only thing they can do is say no. Big deal. Most times they say yes. But it is all in how you come across, if they think you are a shy creepy guy then you will get a big NO very quick.
That covers all land. Really getting the nod to collect is easy.....finding a tree worthy of collection is the hard part.
Letters won't work, they won't take the time to read it and will throw it away after the first sentence. Be personable and upfront.
Happy collecting.....
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
What!!! Practical advice from someone who collects a bunch and knows what he is talking about? We will have none of that!!!
