Collecting. With or without permission?

[Anonymous User]

The bottom line is that if you take something that isn't yours without permission, it is stealing, plain and simple.

Everything else is just justification for stealing.



WIll

 

[rockm]

Not dramatic, just sick and tired...

"wow thats a bit dramatic. too bad if you meet your match."

It is not dramatic. It is pragmatic. I've been told I can no longer collect in some areas because other people have abused the privilege (not bonsai collectors, but plant collectors). If I take a stand, then I may get expanded areas to collect. If I actively demonstrate that I'm conscientious, care about what I'm doing and willing to report people who break the law, I may have more opportunity.

Also, I'm tired of thoughtless people carelessly screwing up others' opportunity. I'm tired of people thinking they are entitled...

As for "meeting my match," well, I'm over 45 and 160 lbs--kinda scrawny and old. However, I'm also pretty p.o.ed about people helping themselves to things that aren't theirs and committed to preventing it. Even if I get my butt kicked, I will take a very large bite out of said butt kicker. "The question ya gotta ask yourself is 'is that tree worth it? Well, IS it?, Punk...'"

 

[bretts]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bretts

I think every country will be different. Places like Japan or china where mountains have been stripped of native trees are an example of what needs to be avoided.

By Ash

I find this information interesting, where does this come from?

I find it intresting that you imply my information is wrong by sounding intrested.

Well since I have not visited there lately I was relying on information from the various bonsai books I have read relating to the issue.

 

[bretts]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonsaiNut
I've collected trees from garbage cans and from burn piles before without asking permission


Abandoned goods are an exception, like a few Yews I took when a clueless home owner dug them up and sat them next to the road for garbage pick up.



Will

So if some one abandons seeds out the window of their car that grow into weeds when does this become government property?

These trees are WEEDS they are a pollutant on our native bushland we are doing the government a service, this stick your head in the sand and being derogatory to persona while ignoring the issue and draw a line in the sand to make themselves feel righteous is very arrogant.

 

[bretts]

The bottom line is that if you take something that isn't yours without permission, it is stealing, plain and simple.

Everything else is just justification for stealing.

So where those Yews yours you have not stated that you asked permission. By your justification this is stealing.
I don't think you have the clarity of what is right or wrong to warrant telling others.

 

[rockm]

Resources..

Here is an article detailing the historical collection of shimpaku junipers on mountains in Japan:

http://www.bonsai-wbff.org/octoberbonsai/shimpaku/shimp.html

Pay particular attention to the final pages. Aside from the startling stories of collectors dieing for the sport, note "dwindling" supplies, exhausted resources, requirements for stricter and stricter controls on what's collected and who gets what.

Given the litigious nature of folks here in the West, coupled with an increasing environmentalist bias against bonsai collection, I can foresee less and less accommodation for collectors. If you abuse the privilege, the process is accelerated for everyone.

Careless collection leads to increased regulatory attention and no trees for anyone.

 

[bretts]

"If It is state owned or federal land then I will take what I want when I want."

This is the attitude of a spoiled child. Such attitude and behavior threatens everyone who collects trees for bonsai. Your sorry attitude endangers the ability of more sensible, mature and law-abiding collectors to use Federal and state owned land.

Location on state or federal land does not entitle you to take a tree "when you want." It is not yours. It belongs to the taxpayer and is held in trust for the whole community. Such lands are managed for a reason. To keep people like you from carting off anything they take a fancy to. Get your lazy butt up to the proper office and get a (expletive deleted) permit like the rest of us.

If I see you "collecting" a plant without permission on county, state or Federal land (and I will ask you if I see you) and you don't have a permit, I will hold you until the police/rangers/law enforcement arrives, OR I will personally escort you to their offices. If you put up an argument, I will respond in kind.

Seeking the proper permission when collecting on such property is NOT optional. If you collect, you have a responsibility to find out what it takes to do so and to live up to those responsibilities. The world is not your oyster, no matter how special your mommy said you are.

Is this your countries natives trees you are talking about here. If they are shame on you. Even if the goverment told me I could I would not remove natives from our land. The only time that is cosher over here is if the land is being cleard. If you guys are fighting over who has the rights to the weeds then bad luck we have plenty over here.

 

[Asus101]

Is this your countries natives trees you are talking about here. If they are shame on you. Even if the goverment told me I could I would not remove natives from our land. The only time that is cosher over here is if the land is being cleard. If you guys are fighting over who has the rights to the weeds then bad luck we have plenty over here.

You can remove any native on your land in which you planted. You need a permit for land clearing, and this is where you are able to obtain a permit to collect other tree's. Its expensive depending on how many tree's you want to take, but its possible to get that permission.

The fine here if your caught is the same fine as if you where land clearing. Comes under the same act.

No one really tried to get permission, they ask once to the wrong person, get denied and give up. You have access to the net, learn to use google to find who you need to talk to, and all your options if they turn you down.

Removing pest species is a little more complicated than just ripping them out. No matter what species it is, they all support an eco system.

 

[shohin kid]

rockm, I agree with you 100%.

I don't really like collecting trees, in fact I never have, but asking permission is the right thing to do!

Maybe I would collect trees if satsuki azaleas and shimpaku grew wild.

 

[rockm]

Kind of off the Resevation aren't you?

"These trees are WEEDS they are a pollutant on our native bushland we are doing the government a service, this stick your head in the sand and being derogatory to persona while ignoring the issue and draw a line in the sand to make themselves feel righteous is very arrogant."

Well, see, we're talking about America, not Oz, so for the life of me I can't understand why you're mad at me and calling me names.

Anyway, if you read what I wrote, you will see I was talking specifically about UNITED STATES federal land and US STATE land and US NATIVE TREES. There are substantial, existing rules about how and what you can legally take off of US National Forests, Bureau of Land Management (BLM) holdings, state and county property. I didn't mention "invasives" in any of my responses. Depending on location and species, there are specific rules about removal of those. Also the thought that removing them at any cost is naive. In some instances removing them can do as much harm or more than the invasives themselves. Might want to consult with the foresters to make sure you're not causing an erosion problem by removing trees...Not saying that's a big problem, but it's certainly something to consider...

Reply With Quote

 

[AndyWilson]

Hmm, i always ask, but here we dont need permission for most species, its just protected native species that require a permit.

 

[bretts]

You can remove any native on your land in which you planted.

Can you show me where you get this please? When I know people are cutting down native trees on there land and farmers are taking them down by the acres and I am lynched for digging up a couple of weeds It reminds me of the stupidity of some people who think a piece of paper makes things that are obviously wrong seem right.

You need a permit for land clearing, and this is where you are able to obtain a permit to collect other tree's. Its expensive depending on how many tree's you want to take, but its possible to get that permission.

This land clearing is what the farmers do to thier own land how can this be used for collecting weeds on the side of the road?

No one really tried to get permission, they ask once to the wrong person, get denied and give up. You have access to the net, learn to use google to find who you need to talk to, and all your options if they turn you down.

Who are you talking about here. This is script writting at it's best you insinuate alot but know nothing of what I have done.

Removing pest species is a little more complicated than just ripping them out. No matter what species it is, they all support an eco system.

Yes you have to give some thought to what time of the year to rip them out. As I stated some may be stopping soil erosion on enbankments but as to the paper I stated that is the only reason not to collect.
But let me know any information you have of how they benifit the local eco system by taking up space the locals should have.

 

[bretts]

Well, see, we're talking about America, not Oz, so for the life of me I can't understand why you're mad at me and calling me names.

I think it is you who failed to see that this discussion was started by an Aussie and the discussion he relates to is by Aussies.
I am mad because you started the name calling.

"If It is state owned or federal land then I will take what I want when I want."

This is the attitude of a spoiled child. Such attitude and behavior threatens everyone who collects trees for bonsai. Your sorry attitude endangers the ability of more sensible, mature and law-abiding collectors to use Federal and state owned land.

Location on state or federal land does not entitle you to take a tree "when you want." It is not yours. It belongs to the taxpayer and is held in trust for the whole community. Such lands are managed for a reason. To keep people like you from carting off anything they take a fancy to. Get your lazy butt up to the proper office and get a (expletive deleted) permit like the rest of us.

If I see you "collecting" a plant without permission on county, state or Federal land (and I will ask you if I see you) and you don't have a permit, I will hold you until the police/rangers/law enforcement arrives, OR I will personally escort you to their offices. If you put up an argument, I will respond in kind.

Seeking the proper permission when collecting on such property is NOT optional. If you collect, you have a responsibility to find out what it takes to do so and to live up to those responsibilities. The world is not your oyster, no matter how special your mommy said you are.

Anyway, if you read what I wrote, you will see I was talking specifically about UNITED STATES federal land and US STATE land and US NATIVE TREES

I think you will find that you stated "county, state or Federal land" I see no mention that this is specifically about United States land.
In fact it is you who needs to read and you would have seen that I did address the issue of erosion and only collect on flat land. I think it is disgusting that youse are fighting over collecting native species of your country.

 

[rockm]

OK...

Seems we're both not reading. I responded specifically to "Daysleeper's" quote that is included in this series. I did that to indicate I was responding to THAT PARTICULAR POST...not the initial question in particular, much as you're doing in your posts.

That Daysleeper post is clearly marked as originating in New Jersey. I stand behind my response. The poster needs to get a clue about what he's doing. He is acting like a spoiled child and his post leads me to believe that he IS probably a child or adolescent. "Spoiled" is an adjective that lends a distinct meaning to the noun. The "location" line included in every response is an important part of the post...

Obviously collection laws vary tremendously country to country. I still advocate investigating and observing the rules and laws about collection BEFORE you start digging things up.

 

[Anonymous User]

So if some one abandons seeds out the window of their car that grow into weeds when does this become government property?

These trees are WEEDS they are a pollutant on our native bushland we are doing the government a service, this stick your head in the sand and being derogatory to persona while ignoring the issue and draw a line in the sand to make themselves feel righteous is very arrogant.

I am mighty arrogant, but that has nothing to do with the subject matter at all, now does it? Try to stick to the subject and avoid name calling please.

The fact is if you take something that is not yours, without permission, it is stealing. Even a dandelion.

Once those seeds hit the ground, they are growing on someone’s property (here in America) and belong to them. Period. Where doesn't matter, there is not an inch of land that is not owned by somebody.

In America trash is considered abandoned property, which is why people can legally go through your trash and why celebrities and other unsavory people are very careful about what they throw away. When someone digs up a tree or bush and places it alongside the curb, it is abandoned and no one minds if you take them, no one. The same goes for any other trash. But the minute you walk over to his Japanese Maple that has a hundred seedlings growing under it, seedlings they most likely are going to rip up and toss the next time they weed anyways, and pull some up without permission, you are stealing.

Knock on the door, ask permission, that is the right and legal thing to do.

So where those Yews yours you have not stated that you asked permission. By your justification this is stealing.
I don't think you have the clarity of what is right or wrong to warrant telling others.

You think wrongly then.

The Yews were abandoned property and I was in full compliance with the laws in removing them. I even went one strep further and asked the homeowner if he planned on removing any other trees, offering to do the digging myself and save him the effort. Next spring I will be removing 6 40 year old, pruned back yearly, Junipers from his rental property.

Doing the right thing has its advantages.


Justify all you want to, but don't get mad when the simple truth is stated, stealing is stealing, no matter what the justification.


Will

 

[Taiko-Earth]

Ok, I have to drop my two cents in ...

I have always asked for permission to collect with one exception.

One time a road was going through expansion, right through a cypress stand. It wasn't much a hammock, but there were some interesting trunks among the group. I watched and waited while the construction took several months to come close enough to start excavation. I thought about asking like I always did, but I was tired of the "Yew wanna do whaat?" responses that I always got from people.

I decided to take one out. That's right, with out even asking. Why not, they are just going to destroy it anyway, I thought. Well, I took it out and it lived for a while, and the road construction began and bulldozed everything left.

Now the caveat: I still feel ashamed all the same. Go figure

I guess my point is, there are black and white issues and greys inbetween, but never forget a LAW IS A LAW...

 

[Ashbarns]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bretts

I think every country will be different. Places like Japan or china where mountains have been stripped of native trees are an example of what needs to be avoided.

I find it intresting that you imply my information is wrong by sounding intrested.

Well since I have not visited there lately I was relying on information from the various bonsai books I have read relating to the issue.[/quote]


Which books are these? I would be interested to read them. This is purely from an interest of using the collection of yamadori as a research subject for an article.

 

[bretts]

Seems we're both not reading

My apologies Rockm. I did wonder where that quote came from and decided it was words to that effect type quote. My mistake although using tags can help

I still find your my way or the highway attitude does not go well. This is not such a simple issue. I think in making the discussion coherant members should stipulate wether they are talking about natives or exotics wich are classed as weeds.

A guy has a piece of paper to rip out a thousand trees for land clearing. Even though I am not allowed I jump in and save a couple. Wether natives or exotics I would not feel ashamed of this in fact I would be bragging about it to any tree huggers I could find. The goverment in most countries has done a pretty poor effort of keeping these trees in trust for us. I don't recall them asking me if I wanted that land cleard so they are the ones stealing from us.

Ah Will I don't care or know about your countries dirty rubbish rules. I can only go by what you said. Take without asking is stealing. You took and you did not ask.

 

[bretts]

I guess my point is, there are black and white issues and greys inbetween, but never forget a LAW IS A LAW...

Yes but there seems to be no law for bonsai gardeners that would like to create a win win situation by collecting exotic weeds from the side of the road in Australia.

Anyway I am not so black and white, some of the most amazing changes or occurances have happened because poeple have gone againts the law.
How's this guy he walked out into the middle of the jungle in India and started building his own private garden. He was so scared of getting caught he told no one and did the work at night by himself after he finished his day job. When the goverment found his disregard of the law, wich was a couple of acres by then, they decided to employ him to continue his work full time with a crew of 50 helpers.
I have seen a documentary on this garden and it is absolutly amazing. Classic.
http://www.nekchand.com/

 

[bretts]

By Ash
Which books are these? I would be interested to read them. This is purely from an interest of using the collection of yamadori as a research subject for an article.

ROFL. Do your own research if that is the truth. Why would I bother helping some one who treated me with such disregard. I will not forget how you stabbed me in the back Ash I will not bother wasting time trying to work out what is fact or fiction with you anymore.