Collecting. With or without permission?

[irene_b]

We are each a steward of this earth, and as such we are responsible to insure that there is species of trees and animals for the future generations...Collecting trees or anything else with wild abandon is no different than wiping out something to extinction.
Unless you are willing to say to hell with the future generations every seeing trees,animals,etc. you will collect without permission or hunt to extinction.
As a child I acted as a child.....Then I grew up and learned to be a responsible citizen of our planet.
So which of you are a child?
Irene

 

[emorrin]

I have been very tempted to snag an Oak seedling by my parent's house in (ironically) Oak Forest, but have not done so because it is on forest preserve property. I mean one side of me says that there are thousands of such seedlings growing everywhere in the forest, what difference would it be if one was missing? The other says it is not right because it is not my property. Going one step further, is it wrong to gather acorns or seeds on forest preserve or other people's property?

This is actually my first year collecting anything because my confidence level on keeping it alive after collecting was not that high. I collected a couple of 3 year old American Red Cedars on my friend's neighbor's land after asking. He was all so happy to let me take as many as I wanted because they were growing everywhere and are a nuisance to him. I have managed to keep them alive and have transplanted larger trees for friends so my confidence level is higher.

There are some good articles on the Knowledge of Bonsai web site about collecting. I would always ask before doing so though. The worst thing that can happen is being told No...

 

[bretts]

By Irene
Unless you are willing to say to hell with the future generations every seeing trees,animals,etc. you will collect without permission or hunt to extinction

Irene these are two totally different things.
The goverment is handing out permision to knock down hundreds of acres with permision but we are unable to get written permision to collect a couple of exotic weeds. Your comment is unrealistic in my opinion.
I would rather be the one that took a dozen weeds over my life without permision than the farmer that cleared hundreds of acres of valuable native trees with permision. When I get to heaven and I am asked Why did you do this? I won't be saying because they told me too.

 

[bretts]

I have been very tempted to snag an Oak seedling by my parent's house in (ironically) Oak Forest, but have not done so because it is on forest preserve property. I mean one side of me says that there are thousands of such seedlings growing everywhere in the forest, what difference would it be if one was missing? The other says it is not right because it is not my property. Going one step further, is it wrong to gather acorns or seeds on forest preserve or other people's property?

This is a Forrest reserve of your native trees and of course you made the right decision not to take any seedlings. One probably won't hurt as it would just be one less in the race to catch the sunlight when a large tree fails. The problem will arise if many others do the same. Yet we have a couple of oaks in our local park that seed in the flower garden. If you pick it right you can get them before the gardeners pull them out.
As too collecting seed I say use your noggin. If it is not a high traffic area and there is no fear of over collection then I am all for johnny apple seed propagating trees by collecting seeds from such areas. I am sure others will have a problem with it though.
I usually collect Chinese tallow seeds this time of year from the street trees while I am waiting for the misses to come out of the shop. I also collect seeds from our local botanical garden as I know that they do not use them in any propagation or sharing with other garden programmes.

American Red Cedars on my friend's neighbor's land after asking. He was all so happy to let me take as many as I wanted because they were growing everywhere and are a nuisance to him.

Yet I dislike this. These are your natives. I wonder if the local wildlife saw them as a nuisance.

 

[Asus101]

I also collect seeds from our local botanical garden as I know that they do not use them in any propagation or sharing with other garden programmes.

That is a copy right issue dude, and one not winnable over here. I tried getting some permission to collect seed over here in our gardens, but got told its not a good idea as copyright infringement is a nasty issue.

Clearing native land with permission is not that straight forward. There are many long lists of requirements that need to be met as well as a number of different councils that need to be consulted.

Its not hard to find the resources on this topic and similar situations.

 

[Anonymous User]

Ah Will I don't care or know about your countries dirty rubbish rules. I can only go by what you said. Take without asking is stealing. You took and you did not ask.

Excuse me, go back and read my post before making such claims......I talked to the homeowner.


That's okay, no need to apologize.



Kindergarten, that's where most people learn the simple, yet big lessons in live, like you don't take something that is not yours without asking.



Will

 

[Smoke]

Excuse me, go back and read my post before making such claims......I talked to the homeowner.


That's okay, no need to apologize.



Kindergarten, that's where most people learn the simple, yet big lessons in live, like you don't take something that is not yours without asking.



Will

You mean like an article?

 

[PaulH]

I didn't choose a poll answer because neither one applies. I normally get permission but have been known to rescue trees from certain death, i.e. those barely hanging on in jeep trails and logging roads.

 

[JasonG]

I didn't choose a poll answer because neither one applies. I normally get permission but have been known to rescue trees from certain death, i.e. those barely hanging on in jeep trails and logging roads.

That would be why you live in Rescue then right?

 

[Ashbarns]

ROFL. Do your own research if that is the truth. Why would I bother helping some one who treated me with such disregard. I will not forget how you stabbed me in the back Ash I will not bother wasting time trying to work out what is fact or fiction with you anymore.

Brett you're fighting with everyone here on this thread. Looks like it is you against the world. You are obsessed with how clever you are but all your knowledge is based on research done by others. We are getting to see the real Brett Somers now, a bully and a coward. They say empty vessels make the most noise and once more you prove that to be the case. The only person to blame for your removal as the Mod of the 'Book Shelf' at Bonsai Vault, is you Brett. You just don't have the capacity to listen to good advice.

Head Nut I am really regretful that issues from another site have been brought to your forum here and that closes the matter from me. Unless......

Ash

 

[milehigh_7]

wow thats a bit dramatic. too bad if you meet your match.

*Giggle* Was thinking the same thing Antonio. No offense Rock.

All kidding aside, let's travel back to the basics of bonsai. Yes we all love little trees and yes we all have our thoughts on various things but what are the basics? What do the points of our little triangle represent? In the end we are not practicing bonsai at all if we do not keep those basics in mind.

Just to make the point more concrete, please correct me if I am mistaken but the lowest branch represents the earth the middle branch represents us. Come on people, by default, when we do bonsai we celebrate our relationship to the earth. If all of our collecting stems from taking this relationship seriously, we will likely not need to have this discussion.

 

[bretts]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bretts

Ah Will I don't care or know about your countries dirty rubbish rules. I can only go by what you said. Take without asking is stealing. You took and you did not ask.

By Will
Excuse me, go back and read my post before making such claims......I talked to the homeowner.


That's okay, no need to apologize.

Your answer to Bnuts statement suggests otherwise you even insulted the guy as being clueless!. I am sure your warped use of the English language will have some excuse though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonsaiNut
I've collected trees from garbage cans and from burn piles before without asking permission

By Will
Abandoned goods are an exception, like a few Yews I took when a clueless home owner dug them up and sat them next to the road for garbage pick up.

 

[bretts]

By Asus about collecting seed from Botanical Gardens
That is a copy right issue dude, and one not winnable over here. I tried getting some permission to collect seed over here in our gardens, but got told its not a good idea as copyright infringement is a nasty issue.

I think youve been taken for a ride there dude Lets look at the one tree I know we have copyright on here in Aus. The wollemi pine. Now I can understand that there was a certain amount of cost and effort that went into making this tree available for the general public and at least some of the profits went to preserving the one pocket of this long lost tree left. Yet I don't see this copyright on the tree going as far as stopping anyone from propagating for personal use. Copyright is only permision to take some one to court and the usual outcome is something along the lines of compensation for loss of market sales. The most the copyright holder could walk away from court with is the value of the trees that the home owner propagated. Hardley a realistic senario.
I would be intrested wether the person who told you this also pionted out which trees where copyrighted. Would he alow you to collect from common trees?

Clearing native land with permission is not that straight forward. There are many long lists of requirements that need to be met as well as a number of different councils that need to be consulted.

I have talked to Farmers who said they spent the first half of thier life clearing trees and then the second half planting them back. We now understand that this clearing is doing great harm to our land so I look in disbelief as the land owners drag chains between tractors clearing acres at a time with a piece of paper in thier hand. But we who take a couple of weeds without the bit of paper are classed as vandals.

I have taken the time to respond to pionts you have raised but I guess it it too much for you elaborate on the statements that I questioned.
As far as I know Pup is the only one we know of In Australia that has permision to collect on goverment land wich is in WA and not the same for our states well mine at least anyway because we don't even have the department that Pup got his from. You asked for help from members for information on getting this permision if you have as you claim found a way to get permision for this It is pretty selfish to get a result and not publish this as you asked others to do for you? You have stated on Ausbonsai that most if not all national parkes allow you to buy a permit to collect pest speiceis. Yet you have not elaborated when asked.
You state
I have found here in Aus you can get permission from the councils if you know how to ask and who to ask.
For as long as I can remember you have been asking for information on how to get permission to collect if you have worked it out how about passing on the information like you asked others to do for you?

 

[bretts]

Brett you're fighting with everyone here on this thread. Looks like it is you against the world. You are obsessed with how clever you are but all your knowledge is based on research done by others. We are getting to see the real Brett Somers now, a bully and a coward. They say empty vessels make the most noise and once more you prove that to be the case. The only person to blame for your removal as the Mod of the 'Book Shelf' at Bonsai Vault, is you Brett. You just don't have the capacity to listen to good advice.

Head Nut I am really regretful that issues from another site have been brought to your forum here and that closes the matter from me. Unless......

Ash

You think I should feel bad that I allow myself the freedom to disagree with people. This is your narrow minded view of the issue. You think that I should feel bad because I have the tenacity to express my views when they are not the same as others. I don't spend time on the forums to pat people on the back and just go with the flow. I come here to discuss my thoughts and increase my understanding through interesting discussion. In return I am as honest as I can be because life is too short to play silly games.
I make no claim to being any cleverer than anyone else but I do enjoy learning. My knowledge is based on the 4 years I have been doing bonsai and my utilisation of the information I have read in that time. What else can it be? If my observations sound cleverer than you think they should I don't think I need to apologise as I am only discussing my thoughts.
Your narrow minded opinion of me because I do not think the same way as you is typical of what I have learnt about you. Expressing my views when they are not the same as others is hardly cowardly this also does not make me a bully. I often make great effort to answer all points of view that are expressed by others in discussions I am involved in. Someone like you who goes with the flow and is too scared to express views that are not the same as others is the empty vessel.

I don't blame anyone for my removal as Mod at BV as I have stated. I had made the decision to withdraw my services some time before but felt it right to discuss this with the boss who was not available for some time. I do blame you for having no concern of such things yourself and informing me after the fact that I had been removed as a Mod with no attempt to discuss this with me or thank me for my time. You claim you where only doing what you where told but you are a grown man and should take responsibility for your own actions. I found any information from you was unreliable and I drew weary of working out what the truth was.
Since you have decided to air this laundry here I feel it only reasonable to state the reasons I did not wish to continue as moderator for Book shelf.
My proposal for the forum was that it was not to be another book review area but a place to discuss articles and concepts put forward by the authors. Your advice to make it like all the others went against what I envisaged. Your insistence that as moderator I must compile a certain number of threads per month to keep the forum active even though, 90% of the threads on the forum where mine already, instead of working on the concepts I was putting forward to encourage members to use the forum themselves. This was not what I believed my duties as a moderator should be. It is interesting to note that in the many months you have now been moderator at the bookshelf forum you have only posted one book review. It seems that you do not practice what you preach.
This coupled with your obsession with correct spelling being more concerned with having a space between upto in my posts instead of actually joining in the discussions I put forward is conclusive to my opinion that you have little constructive opinion on actual bonsai discussion.
If this was not enough the obsession of sponsorship to the site from bonsai focus meant that I was only allowed to say good things about the magazine articles and was constantly reminded that I must keep them happy.

I don't think apologising to Bnut as you are doing what you would not appreciate at BV counts in fact I think it is very hypocriticle.

 

[bretts]

Interesting thoughts Mile high. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems you are suggesting that our connection to the earth will ensure we make the correct decision when collecting?

 

[bisjoe]

Our city has laws that even prohibit cutting down your own trees on your property without a permit if over a certain size. Even if the tree is diseased and in danger of falling on your house, and in that case you must attach a report from a certified arborist testifying to that danger. On the other hand, we are required by county law to control noxious/invasive weeds on our property. Failure to do so results in the
county removing them at the owner's expense, and if not paid, putting a lien on the property to cover the cost. Collecting small quantities from most public lands is allowed with a small permit fee, like $15, but finding the correct agency and the right office to obtain the permit takes a lot of time. Much of the best material is on nature preserve areas, though, where no collecting is allowed.

 

[rockm]

"*Giggle* Was thinking the same thing Antonio. No offense Rock"

Glad to provide some comic relief But seriously, I hope my stand-up routine not only provided laughs, but a little insight into some of the issues involved with collecting.

I would hate to see bonsai collecting become akin to the reaction that hunting gets nowadays. There are many parallels to hunting in bonsai collection and some of the same stereotypes abound--"it's cruel, it's unnatural, it damages the environment, it's simply barbaric, it's done only for the amusement of the hunter with wanton disregard for the hunted"...the list goes on.

For what it's worth, there will always be a small group of idiots that ALL those criticisms apply to in bonsai and hunting. These dimwits care only for themselves. However, the vast majority of hunters (animal and bonsai) care more about what they're hunting than any of their critics. They're also more knowledgeable about their quarry than critics and do more to preserve it than any other group.

The attitude that a tree or animal is simply "mine for the taking" with no thought to how its taken, sullies us all.

Are their times when permission is impractical? Probably. There are no absolutes. Should you "rescue" that tree in front of the bulldozer without finding who's responsible for clearing the land and asking permission? Probably. However, each instance requires thinking through the details and implications. For instance, if you're injured (break a leg or something) while collecting on that land--the landowner is possibly legally liable for your injury. THAT more than the issue of taking a miserable little tree is probably why the landowner doesn't want trespassers mucking around on the property.

It's ALWAYS best to pursue permission before you collect. As Will pointed out, it's not only the right thing to do, it can also be a way to get even better trees. Establish a relationship with a landowner--show him/her you're responsible and you will be welcome and welcomed back. Snatch a tree off the land and you could get a butt full of buckshot and a "don't EVER let me see you here again."

 

[bretts]

If It is state owned or federal land then I will take what I want when I want. those agencies have no power over me. I will ask If the tree is located on a reservation or private property.

Rockm I remembered some posts back that I should mention I agree comments like the one above is definitely the impression we wish to avoid.
I was wondering when I would get the chance to use a phrase from a Japanese landscape artist but here it is. I agree with your last post %100

 

[Asus101]

I think you've been taken for a ride there dude Lets look at the one tree I know we have copyright on here in Aus. The WollomGTI pine. Now I can understand that there was a certain amount of cost and effort that went into making this tree available for the general public and at least some of the profits went to preserving the one pocket of this long lost tree left. Yet I don't see this copyright on the tree going as far as stopping anyone from propagating for personal use. Copyright is only permission to take some one to court and the usual outcome is something along the lines of compensation for loss of market sales. The most the copyright holder could walk away from court with is the value of the trees that the home owner propagated. Hardly a realistic scenario.
I would be interested whether the person who told you this also pointed out which trees where copyrighted. Would he allow you to collect from common trees?

Well, every cultivatar in Australia has copyright on it. It is to protect the breeder, so no one else can claim ownership. This means that each botanic garden has to pay to use the plant, unless its given by the breeder to the park.
Now if you read your signs on entry to a botanic park it will tell you that its prohibited to remove and plant material from the park. You see, once removed for that environment, it is very hard to track what happens to that material. Bonsai people are very giving, and you will find samples quickly spreading.
Think of it as plant piracy, like internet piracy...
And no You still can get permission to collect common tree's as its way too hard to police.

I have taken the time to respond to points you have raised but I guess it it too much for you elaborate on the statements that I questioned.
As far as I know Pup is the only one we know of In Australia that has permission to collect on government land which is in WA and not the same for our states well mine at least anyway because we don't even have the department that Pup got his from. You asked for help from members for information on getting this permission if you have as you claim found a way to get permission for this It is pretty selfish to get a result and not publish this as you asked others to do for you? You have stated on Ausbonsai that most if not all national Parks allow you to buy a permit to collect pest species. Yet you have not elaborated when asked.
You state
I have found here in Aus you can get permission from the councils if you know how to ask and who to ask.
For as long as I can remember you have been asking for information on how to get permission to collect if you have worked it out how about passing on the information like you asked others to do for you?

Well to get the same permission Pup has outside of WA, you need to be a member of a Uni. Going through ethics its easy enough to get what you need, as long as it has a purpose.

I got permission to remove olives in the hills by talking to as man members of the board as I could find. I finally got one to agree to help me get the permission and I got it. I can only take a few select olives pre marked, but I got permission.

As for collecting on national park, that's easy, anyone how calls a NP can find out easy enough. You apply to the warden for a permit to remove "species X".
I have spent weeks talking to government departments, reading through various crap on different details. I have been helpful to those who have not only asked, but have shown some worth by doing some research themselves.
If you want more information you need to go to your own government departments and find out your states rules and regs.

Nothing in this world is free, and there are even fewer things not under government control. There are always places to collect, private land is a great place to start and some times its easy to work out deals. I made a deal with a wildlife park about taking a few things if i replaced them with something from the area. I took something, but gave something better.

 

[Vance Wood]

ok an example .lets say i drive past a pine plantation and its fenced off 10metres from the road. Now theres a heap of self seeded pines growing on an embankment some twisted, some with split trunks etc all under a metre or so high before the fence. So these pines are between the road and the fence. To me mate these are up for grabs. They are self seeded, not planted. They are twisted not straight hence no good for timber production . They are stunted ,again no good for timber production. Anyone got a shovel

The point you are missing here is those trees are on what we call over here in the good Ol' USofA on the public access or right of way. As such they are property of the state. You can argue that you have a right to take them, and if some pendejo with an attitude and a badge decides to make a big deal out of it you may well be arguing your point in court.