Colanders and mesh; hold your roots!

[sorce]

@BE.REAL IMO....

The Purpose of a colander is for Rice?
Rinsing dishes?
Straining noodles?

Putting Trees of any type in them is defeating their purpose....yes?

So I ask you then....

Do you believe they only have one purpose?

When we already know they are not meant for trees at all!

Just as the dude who knows putting a tree in a colander isn't going to turn it into edible rice.....

A dude who puts a tree'd colander in the ground knows he is no longer using a colander as an "airpruning" tool....

But a marker at which to safely cut his tree out of the ground.
(Or another of a number of reasons, some yet undefined)

NO ONE ON THIS SITE HAS EVER DISPLAYED ANY KIND OF BACKWARD OF THINKING THAT A COLANDER ON THE GROUND "AIRPRUNES".

not Fredman or Anthony, the only 2 who use this method and or advertise or preach it...both who frequent the Aussie Bonsai Forum, where this is said to be more practiced and understood.

This "colander in colander", "colander in the ground" thing.....

It shouldn't be denounced by those who do not understand it.

It's like me saying Bonsai is stupid cuz I don't understand it.

Or an "airpruning" pot is stupid because I don't understand it.

Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

You are correct colanders in the ground is like putting a screen doors on a submarines. I know some people do it but it serves no purpose of realistic importance.

There are some plants that naturally grow fibrous, shallow roots such as Euonymus, however, they still benefit from strainers because of the oxygenation factor and the fact that you can force loads more nutrients through. Think hydroponics

Thanks to you both.
I only use them above ground for the express purpose of refining roots and turbocharging the tree.
Those two purposes are what colanders do best for a tree.
If and when I grow out some trees they will go in the ground or large buckets. When they're the right size then they will go into a colander to work the root system.

 

[Clicio]

This "colander in colander", "colander in the ground" thing.....

I live in the tropics, and there are dozens of examples here of bonsai growers using these two methods to develop thick trunks on tropical trees faster and transfer them to a smaller pot in less time.
So I completely understand Anthony doing it, and why he does it. He is not the only one, surely.

 

[Anthony]

@Adair M ,

Sifu,

you do realise that we are also growing the Celtis l. from Louisiana, which
requires a fridge.
AND also uses a colander in the growing bed [ trough ] for an expanded trunk.
So even obeying the 2 month winter cycle, one can still do a thick trunk
and six branches [ or so ] in the colander in the ground.

But then again we do not bare root when we repot. Slows the tree by two months.

Agree with the pine bit, all we do for 4 years is just place in a wider pot, but not
deeper [ 5 to 6 inches is our max depth, and all pots are porous ]
If going for 15 to 18 inch tall specimens.

Just for fun next year we will retest the trident maple - let you know how it goes.
Colander and all.

Now mending the Fustic you used to view. February was a month of 68 to 65 deg.F
Shut down the Fustics in full sun and leaves turned golden yellow.
2 months +dormant.
The last one only last week is putting back on leaves very slowly.
May have lost 3 branches.
Found out that fustic grows all the way into Argentina.
Some birds must have dropped the seed of in Trinidad, on the way north.
Tree evolved.
Good Day
Anthony

@sorce , old dogs and new tricks.
Much faster Bonsai.

 

[BE.REAL]

@BE.REAL IMO....

The Purpose of a colander is for Rice?
Rinsing dishes?
Straining noodles?

Putting Trees of any type in them is defeating their purpose....yes?

So I ask you then....

Do you believe they only have one purpose?

When we already know they are not meant for trees at all!

Just as the dude who knows putting a tree in a colander isn't going to turn it into edible rice.....

A dude who puts a tree'd colander in the ground knows he is no longer using a colander as an "airpruning" tool....

But a marker at which to safely cut his tree out of the ground.
(Or another of a number of reasons, some yet undefined)

NO ONE ON THIS SITE HAS EVER DISPLAYED ANY KIND OF BACKWARD OF THINKING THAT A COLANDER ON THE GROUND "AIRPRUNES".

not Fredman or Anthony, the only 2 who use this method and or advertise or preach it...both who frequent the Aussie Bonsai Forum, where this is said to be more practiced and understood.

This "colander in colander", "colander in the ground" thing.....

It shouldn't be denounced by those who do not understand it.

It's like me saying Bonsai is stupid cuz I don't understand it.

Or an "airpruning" pot is stupid because I don't understand it.

Sorce

Nicely said.

I guess I put the question out there about a colander in the ground, for someone to explain it( m

@BE.REAL IMO....

The Purpose of a colander is for Rice?
Rinsing dishes?
Straining noodles?

Putting Trees of any type in them is defeating their purpose....yes?

So I ask you then....

Do you believe they only have one purpose?

When we already know they are not meant for trees at all!

Just as the dude who knows putting a tree in a colander isn't going to turn it into edible rice.....

A dude who puts a tree'd colander in the ground knows he is no longer using a colander as an "airpruning" tool....

But a marker at which to safely cut his tree out of the ground.
(Or another of a number of reasons, some yet undefined)

NO ONE ON THIS SITE HAS EVER DISPLAYED ANY KIND OF BACKWARD OF THINKING THAT A COLANDER ON THE GROUND "AIRPRUNES".

not Fredman or Anthony, the only 2 who use this method and or advertise or preach it...both who frequent the Aussie Bonsai Forum, where this is said to be more practiced and understood.

This "colander in colander", "colander in the ground" thing.....

It shouldn't be denounced by those who do not understand it.

It's like me saying Bonsai is stupid cuz I don't understand it.

Or an "airpruning" pot is stupid because I don't understand it.

Sorce

I really put the question out there about the colander in the ground for someone to explain it and hopefully show pictures of it working, cause I don't get it.

But as people mentioned tropical trees grow differently than us up here.

I don't use the typical plastic colanders(anymore, I should say, still have a couple lingering) I make my own with metal mesh(expanded metal), I also would like to give big props to Mr. Vance Wood, for his ideas and teachings in this regard. I learned a lot from you sir!! Bravo!

Anyway, like most things, we have to do what works for us. with so many different factors, its tough to say, what works and doesn't.

So I will continue with yamadori in bigger, homemade boxes with some mesh to get the roots finer and vigorous in order to slowly transition to a bonsai pot. I should say almost the same with trees purchased from non-bonsai nurseries.

thanks to all for the great info.

not to start another issue, but am curious on the grow boxes. What is too big, I can get larger wooden crates from work, and have, and put a tree in them and let it go. basically taking the place of the ground. I would be shocked if these 3-4foot sq. crates would ever be root bound before I need to pull it, but I have been wrong once( haha). I am filling a couple with B. soil(inorganic substrate with some organic thrown in, like 10-15% at most. like most of you, we enjoy experimenting, with the dream of finding/learning the next best thing and be able to share it and see that many more B. trees to admire. Sometimes hours go by, when I am looking at all the different trees, and the creativity that goes into the designs and plantings....someone else called it "Bonsai Porn" or something like that. HAHA

 

[Vance Wood]

Nicely said.

I guess I put the question out there about a colander in the ground, for someone to explain it( m

I really put the question out there about the colander in the ground for someone to explain it and hopefully show pictures of it working, cause I don't get it.

But as people mentioned tropical trees grow differently than us up here.

I don't use the typical plastic colanders(anymore, I should say, still have a couple lingering) I make my own with metal mesh(expanded metal), I also would like to give big props to Mr. Vance Wood, for his ideas and teachings in this regard. I learned a lot from you sir!! Bravo!

Anyway, like most things, we have to do what works for us. with so many different factors, its tough to say, what works and doesn't.

So I will continue with yamadori in bigger, homemade boxes with some mesh to get the roots finer and vigorous in order to slowly transition to a bonsai pot. I should say almost the same with trees purchased from non-bonsai nurseries.

thanks to all for the great info.

not to start another issue, but am curious on the grow boxes. What is too big, I can get larger wooden crates from work, and have, and put a tree in them and let it go. basically taking the place of the ground. I would be shocked if these 3-4foot sq. crates would ever be root bound before I need to pull it, but I have been wrong once( haha). I am filling a couple with B. soil(inorganic substrate with some organic thrown in, like 10-15% at most. like most of you, we enjoy experimenting, with the dream of finding/learning the next best thing and be able to share it and see that many more B. trees to admire. Sometimes hours go by, when I am looking at all the different trees, and the creativity that goes into the designs and plantings....someone else called it "Bonsai Porn" or something like that. HAHA

The box is too big if the roots don't encounter the perimeter of the sides in the first year. Just my opinion; but I have found that any time you use a container that is too large for something that is in it you are flirting with root rot. The soil mass is too isolated to drain properly once saturated and the size of the tree in the soil mass is too small to use up all the available moisture. When the moisture is not being pulled from the soil it can sour. However; you can make a box with screened sides large enough to accommdate as large a tree as you can handle.

 

[sorce]

B. soil

That may be THE problem with larger boxes....
The need/want to use B.(ad) Soil!

I stuck one of my JBP seedlings in pure pumice....

I can't see a situation where pure pumice could "sour".

There is simply too much airflow and no water at all except for in the pumice itself.

If your box was 4ftx4ft you could throw a seedling in the middle....water it only within a 6in diameter of it....and you essentially made a 6in colander..as only that 6in column would wet.
As it grows, you could water in a bigger diameter and increase the "size" of the colander. This (backwards talk of keeping it dry) is really just to illustrate how open and perfect pumice is. (Specifically rootless pumice...hmmmm) So you can see why you COULD keep the whole oversized box wet with no problems.
If you water the corner of a pot with pumice, it nearly doesn't (rate/volume) matter how much you water, the rest of the pot may never get wet.

With dirt, If you water a corner, eventually the whole pot will fill up, and wet the entire mass.

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

That may be THE problem with larger boxes....
The need/want to use B.(ad) Soil!

I stuck one of my JBP seedlings in pure pumice....

I can't see a situation where pure pumice could "sour".

There is simply too much airflow and no water at all except for in the pumice itself.

If your box was 4ftx4ft you could throw a seedling in the middle....water it only within a 6in diameter of it....and you essentially made a 6in colander..as only that 6in column would wet.
As it grows, you could water in a bigger diameter and increase the "size" of the colander. This (backwards talk of keeping it dry) is really just to illustrate how open and perfect pumice is. (Specifically rootless pumice...hmmmm) So you can see why you COULD keep the whole oversized box wet with no problems.
If you water the corner of a pot with pumice, it nearly doesn't (rate/volume) matter how much you water, the rest of the pot may never get wet.

With dirt, If you water a corner, eventually the whole pot will fill up, and wet the entire mass.

Sorce

If you use pure Pumice in all likelihood the soil will float out of the pot. That's the problem with using only Pumice, it's lighter than water and until you get it saturated it does indeed float. You can make arguments for all kinds of things and all kinds of conditions but in the end, most of what we are trying to do, or should be trying to do, is inform people of the most common results under the most common applications as opposed to muddying the water with a plethora of conditional circumstances that many don't even understand.

 

[jeanluc83]

With all these colander discussions it is always "it is this way because that is the way I think it works" and not too much of "it is this way because I have done it and this is what happened". How many in these discussions have actually grown a tree in a colander? It just seams that there is too much information floating around that is based on perception and not reality.

 

[Vance Wood]

With all these colander discussions it is always "it is this way because that is the way I think it works" and not too much of "it is this way because I have done it and this is what happened". How many in these discussions have actually grown a tree in a colander? It just seams that there is too much information floating around that is based on perception and not reality.

I have. I have of course used my own system called The Bonsai Training Planter, I have used colanders, and pond baskets. I have trees in my yard in all three at this moment. Despite claims that seem to be made, all of these devices have one thing in common: The produce an abundance of fine feeder roots and discourage the formation of large support roots. When I developed my planter system which predates the Black Pines in Colanders in Bonsai Today by at least a year officially by the patent application and three or four years in development in going through all of these things every body seems to be coming up with now.

Planting them in the ground: If you don't leave them there too long amounts to having roots extended through the screens meaning you have to cut the roots flush with the screens at a later date which inflicts the ubiquitous root shock when this is done. This is one thing the system is good at, allowing the development of a fine root system without the necessity of continual and annual root pruning.

If you leave them in the ground too long, large roots well expand their mass and tear out the screens leaving you with a un-necessarily destroyed device. The same is true with the colander within a colander. The big problem exists in the minds of people that try to use them. They refuse to believe that a tree can exist without having the roots encased in some sort pot, or in the ground, but most certainly not sitting on a slab of cement in a bucket of dirt in a wire box or something like a colander. Because of this everybody seems to think they have to reinvent the process. It is so bloody simple some find it difficult to accept it at face value.

 

[sorce]

If you use pure Pumice in all likelihood the soil will float out of the pot.

Are you thinking perlite?

Pumice no Floaty!

I watch roots in Colanders like that fly stuck in the drying paint I'm watching!
(Vancism)

Sorce

 

[Anthony]

Vance,

when we do the colander in the ground process.
We depend on the colander / feeder root part when removing the
large roots. Cuts the shock.

We use cheap plastic colanders, no problem.

We also have several trees growing in colanders for observation.

Our later tests - showed that you could grow the 6 branches on
as the trunk thickened, so you could cut the time down a great
deal.

K has allowed me to say this ----------- colander in the ground growing
since Bonsai Today 20 - 1992
A great deal of the information, I leave here has some age to it.
So I can say, it works.
[ It is from a great deal of help - Chinese/Japanese/other since 1979 or so.
Lots of snail mail letters and telephone calls overseas.]

I only came to this list and B.S.G. to find out about shortening the J.B.pine
needles.
No real need to do more research, techniques we use, have years of
testing.
This is why we look for natives, to keep testing the techniques.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Vance Wood]

Pumice do floaty, until it's saturated with water.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance,

when we do the colander in the ground process.
We depend on the colander / feeder root part when removing the
large roots. Cuts the shock.

We use cheap plastic colanders, no problem.

We also have several trees growing in colanders for observation.

Our later tests - showed that you could grow the 6 branches on
as the trunk thickened, so you could cut the time down a great
deal.

K has allowed me to say this ----------- colander in the ground growing
since Bonsai Today 20 - 1992
A great deal of the information, I leave here has some age to it.
So I can say, it works.
[ It is from a great deal of help - Chinese/Japanese/other since 1979 or so.
Lots of snail mail letters and telephone calls overseas.]

I only came to this list and B.S.G. to find out about shortening the J.B.pine
needles.
No real need to do more research, techniques we use, have years of
testing.
This is why we look for natives, to keep testing the techniques.
Good Day
Anthony

Have you ever tried any of this without burying the colander?

 

[BE.REAL]

thinking of sub-dividing the large containers and renting the new smaller sub-divisions to the trees. haha

Basically, going to cut the containers down, shallower, and repot trees in the divided sections. the crates are basically made with 2x6's, or flat sheets. I will be adding st/st mesh to the gaps or making gaps in the sheets. The gaps on the sides and the bottom, hopefully creating a "colander" effect, while giving the roots some room to grow. With an inorganic soil,the mesh and not being so deep(shallow), I am hoping that will assist in the draining issue Mr. V. Wood pointed out(Thanks again). I also will say pumice does float, but enough of it and once water logged, it will sink.
I my inorganic soil will be a combination of pumice, 8822, granite(chicken grit), charcoal, and if I can find, lava rock. I am not sure on what product to use for some organic ingredient. Suggestions welcome. I am aware of bark fines, but not convinced...yet...that they are the best.

Again, Thanks to all.
As like most of you, I probably have way too many "projects" going on, and need to tone it down, so the projects get done and done properly!!!


P.S. With the colander in/on top of ground discussion, I am thinking the species is large factor. I believe someone already mentioned, that Anthony grows more tropical trees, and with your location you are growing year round. Clearly, Anthony is doing what works for his locale, as everyone should. Just think peeps need to understand and clarify where, what, and when they state what works, so everyone is on same page. I.E. I put a shimpaku cutting in a colander , 3 years ago in zone 6a, and I got such and such a result. my 2.5 cents of opinion.

 

[Anthony]

@BE.REAL,

Tropics yes, but for us winter to late spring [ Christmas to April / May ] is the
dry season, no rain, dry winds and local trees stop growing, just flowers and
waiting for the rain.

The Sub-Tropicals from China and a few from zone 7 are asleep from November
/ December until mid to end of February.
Until the end of February, too cold to grow tomatoes -------- especially this year.

Additionally trees in heavy rainfall do not grow.

So let us look at that growing season - April or May then maybe June, July to
say October or November - 7 to 8 months.
They can handle 6 inches of rain monthly, but not 7 to 9 inches.

And in the cold north -------- ?

There is always a cycle of adaptation.
I am afraid nothing grows for 12 months of the yea down here.
Lawn presently dead, brown.

@Vance Wood,

Vance, next time you see K's big Tamarind, know that it was grown colander free,
in the growing trough, but it was a great deal of praying, until it leafed back out.[ 1986 ]
Dropped all the leaves, and just sat there.
Colander / ground makes for less on the nerves.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[BE.REAL]

Thanks to you both.
I only use them above ground for the express purpose of refining roots and turbocharging the tree.
Those two purposes are what colanders do best for a tree.
If and when I grow out some trees they will go in the ground or large buckets. When they're the right size then they will go into a colander to work the root system.

I am playing with the "ground or large buckets" idea. Curious on what you might use for a L.bucket.
I am wanting/thinking/using shallow but wide. As for the ground, I have dug out a shallow and wide hole, tile, then back fill with B.soil. I am also using a large shipping crate, modified for a few tree(4ft sq. and another 6ft. long with apprx. 6inch wall. m constantly worried about the drainage and the science behind large containers like that and not draining all the water. So far I haven't seen an issue(stil new though) I will also add I have mostly conifers and broadleaves in these experiements. I go coo-coo for confiers! Anyway, curious on your thougths. Basically Im experimenting with a few different growing styles or what have you. BE well all!
Oh, I will add to all, Pizza houses/shops, have these sq tubs for proofing there dough. I have got a few, along with a lot of pizza's(what movie) and am using them for a "grow box", again shallow and wide, probably close to 20inch, and a 3-3 inch wall. drill drain holes and go. Strong sturdy plastic too(qt. of an inch thick).....just some food for thought(pun intended)

 

[milehigh_7]

Also I never got the double colender thing. Although, I do let some of mine escape into the ground if Ineed some bulk.

Doubles are nonsense. Take it to the bank.

 

[milehigh_7]

large buckets" idea.)

Read this: https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/earthpot.htm

 

[milehigh_7]

Growing one of these devices inside another will actually diminish the effectiveness of the devise as well as burying it in the ground.

This is GOSPLE from the man who invented them! One of the many benefits to single is that air pruning does not stress the plant. Every time you lift from the ground or cut away the outside strainer, you stress the plant and have lost valuable growth energy. Anyone that says double has not thought it through and only does what they have seen others do.