Candle with double candle growing at tip, what to do with this?

[JudyB]

I have a JWP that is doing very well and is vigorous now that it's been worked out of old bad soil. This year it's got several candles that have double candles growing off the tip. I imagine I should just cut this candle as it's very strong, but I've not seen this before. Thoughts?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Yep, have 1/2 dozen late differentiating candles on the trees this year. Bit single flush and double flush. We simply several treat these as a single candle.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[JudyB]

Yep, have 1/2 dozen late differentiating candles on the trees this year. Bit single flush and double flush. We simply several treat these as a single candle.

cheers
DSD sends

So you leave them go in weak areas?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Yes. Either wait and cut off at decandling time. Or cut down part way to allow the very small adjacent candle’s tissue get stronger this spring and decandle both later. aka single flush technique. Kind of a micro shift.

On the macro side.…If an area/branch of a tree needs to get stronger, one would let the weak areas grow out uncut at decandling time while the strong areas are decandled.

This action ‘shifts‘ the energy balance to the weak areas. Meanwhile the tips of the stronger areas have been stopped and have to push new buds and then new needles to regain momentum.

There is also a micro technique at decandling time. On can leave part of a candle, or fuse, on at decandling time for strong areas of the tree and fully decandle the weaker areas. Those fully decandled will get a head start on the fall growth. While the ones with fuses left on need to die back first before they can grow again.

Often takes a couple years for a weak area (depending how weak)to catch up.

Jonas on Bonsai Tonight has posted an excellent primer on these techniques as well as several variations. Good luck!

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Mike Westervelt]

This is a Japanese White pine DSD, so no decandling per se.

 

[River's Edge]

If I might add an observation and a query. The needles in the picture provided show sign of needle cast. I would prefer to understand both the health and the stage of development and refinement the tree is at before posting advice. I do understand the question was very specific, however I think the answer may depend partly on that information.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

This is a Japanese White pine DSD, so no decandling per se.

Gosh, sorry, I gotta get some new reading glasses… or get some more rest!

Just candle balance it as normal like every other candle, strong to weak, medium to weak, keeping the needle length inside each bundle’s silhouette. For weak areas leave alone.

Agree on the needle caste issue.

Back to up potting once again.

Sorry again
DSD sends

 

[Dav4]

Pretty strong looking candle, so I'd be planning on breaking it back by 50% later this spring... problem solved .

 

[Paradox]

I agree with @Mike Westervelt
On JWP you dont cut candles off but you can pinch long candles in half at the right time if you have long ones to control energy, size of shoots
By the looks of those, its the right time IMO

 

[JudyB]

I agree with @Mike Westervelt
On JWP you dont cut candles off but you can pinch long candles in half at the right time if you have long ones to control energy, size of shoots
By the looks of those, its the right time IMO

Yes agreed, this tree did have several strong areas with long candles, that I have cut the long ones back to half. This was just such an oddity that I wanted to understand it. There are 5 or 6 of these in the tree overall.

 

[JudyB]

If I might add an observation and a query. The needles in the picture provided show sign of needle cast. I would prefer to understand both the health and the stage of development and refinement the tree is at before posting advice. I do understand the question was very specific, however I think the answer may depend partly on that information.

Here is a photo of the whole, it just got a repot this spring, after one year of partial soil removal, as it was in old bad soil. (Brussels) . The tree exploded with new root growth from last year to this, so much so that I had to pry it out of the pot! So it's just putting on its happy face from being trapped in old soil to new growth I think. As to the needle cast, I wonder if that is damage from my wiring perhaps? The tree had also come to me with really old wire on it, and I took it all off last spring, let the tree breath and just rewired a few weeks ago. I will look at the needles closer and see if cast is possible, I see what you mean. Thanks Frank!

 

[Maiden69]

Bjorn has a great video on single flush pines. I have no first hand experience, since they don't fair well in my zone, but I have seen Ryan give a similar advice on his streams.

 

[River's Edge]

Here is a photo of the whole, it just got a repot this spring, after one year of partial soil removal, as it was in old bad soil. (Brussels) . The tree exploded with new root growth from last year to this, so much so that I had to pry it out of the pot! So it's just putting on its happy face from being trapped in old soil to new growth I think. As to the needle cast, I wonder if that is damage from my wiring perhaps? The tree had also come to me with really old wire on it, and I took it all off last spring, let the tree breath and just rewired a few weeks ago. I will look at the needles closer and see if cast is possible, I see what you mean. Thanks Frank!
View attachment 538287

Nice tree! Will be stunning when brought up to health and potential. Thanks for the overall look, tree does appear to be returning to health. The needle aspect I noticed was banding crosswise in the current years needles, not excessively so but enough to suggest the tree might have still been struggling last year! The key aspect will be if the new needles show no sign of banding. often bringing the tree back to health is all it needs to correct itself. I don't think what I noticed could be damage from wiring. No harm in candle reduction in real strong areas, my suggestion would be to give the tree another year to improve in health before heavy candle work and extra needle reduction. But I tend to lean towards extra vigorous growth before continuous compaction and refinement.
I have often seen that type of candle formation in multi flush, not in the single flush before. Your explanation of the past year or so makes sense for this to occur and hi lights the next step to focus on balance and compaction once the tree is back to full health. Great job so far, tree definitely is wearing a happy face.

 

[JudyB]

Nice tree! Will be stunning when brought up to health and potential. Thanks for the overall look, tree does appear to be returning to health. The needle aspect I noticed was banding crosswise in the current years needles, not excessively so but enough to suggest the tree might have still been struggling last year! The key aspect will be if the new needles show no sign of banding. often bringing the tree back to health is all it needs to correct itself. I don't think what I noticed could be damage from wiring. No harm in candle reduction in real strong areas, my suggestion would be to give the tree another year to improve in health before heavy candle work and extra needle reduction. But I tend to lean towards extra vigorous growth before continuous compaction and refinement.
I have often seen that type of candle formation in multi flush, not in the single flush before. Your explanation of the past year or so makes sense for this to occur and hi lights the next step to focus on balance and compaction once the tree is back to full health. Great job so far, tree definitely is wearing a happy face.

Thanks for the assessment, it's good to hear that it seems like it's headed in the right direction. I am surprised actually that it has been as quick to respond as it has been with root work in two consecutive years. A agree with allowing a good year of strong growth this year, and keeping on track to full recovery.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Bjorn has a great video on single flush pines. I have no first hand experience, since they don't fair well in my zone, but I have seen Ryan give a similar advice on his streams.

Nice video. Had watched when it about when realeased. Was going to use this method, but saw a stream on Mirai highlighting the Kimura method, which is completed prior to the fascicles coming out, and adopted his method. So have no comparison of the two methods.

Back when I was first taught we were instructed to cut the bigger candles in half.

Do know using Kimura method in two years back budding improved significantly, needle size lessened by about half and weak areas are no longer weak. However still have single clusters where the adjacent candles grow with differing strength. Guessing this is merely a localized flow issue, and/or one premordial candle’s tissue was created before the other candle’s tissue.

Wondering about the results of the method advised to @JudyB

cheers
DSD sends

 

[JudyB]

Nice video. Had watched when it about when realeased. Was going to use this method, but saw a stream on Mirai highlighting the Kimura method, which is completed prior to the fascicles coming out, and adopted his method. So have no comparison of the two methods.

Back when I was first taught we were instructed to cut the bigger candles in half.

Do know using Kimura method in two years back budding improved significantly, needle size lessened by about half and weak areas are no longer weak. However still have single clusters where the adjacent candles grow with differing strength. Guessing this is merely a localized flow issue, and/or one premordial candle’s tissue was created before the other candle’s tissue.

Wondering about the results of the method advised to @JudyB

cheers
DSD sends

Can you be more specific about the Kimura method so we may all learn from that please? I did cut all the strong candles in the strong areas back on this tree, I will allow the medium candles to run this year. I am seeing plenty of advantageous budding occurring already, so the tree is certainly moving out well.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

Can you be more specific about the Kimura method so we may all learn from that please? I did cut all the strong candles in the strong areas back on this tree, I will allow the medium candles to run this year. I am seeing plenty of advantageous budding occurring already, so the tree is certainly moving out well.

I'm wondering what would happen if the "extra" candles were left on?
Could the main one be halved at a later date or would those small one develop into regular candles?

No habla "PINES!"
Wish I did, but really don't.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Sure Judy.
Managing growth by systematic candle pinching… not candle pruning.

Here’s my understanding.

Let grow in spring. no ferts.

Pinch when candles push and scales form…Before needle bundles push out….

1. When readily apparent and pushing outside profile of rosette, break/cut longest candles to just inside profile of needle rosette. This pushes energy back to smaller candles.

2. Next when medium strength candles push outside profile, do the same,

3. Continue trimming strong and medium candles as needed…usually a few push more to profile or to point where there are still about six needle bundles remaining. Based upon my experience only happens first year after that outliers are rare. However one must always leave needle buds on a candle…even if out side profile…. Can trim next year.

4. Do not trim weak candles.

5. Exception weak branches, don’t candle prune at all…. but usually these don’t have many strong candles ime.

Fertilize/prune after needles are hardened off… sheaths drop

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

That’s about what I do, except I’ll hit mine with some fish emulsion in the spring & summer. Like that JWP @JudyB!

 

[Japonicus]

I likes your JWP @JudyB
I have a mugo pine with triple heads on strong candles.

But like Frank, I've never seen them on my JWP. Mugo is single flush...normally.
Kimuras method is outlined in the "book" / collection, Bonsai Today Master Series PINES.

Be careful if you buy this book, as it is a collection of different styles and methods.
It can get confusing. Can't tell you how many times I've read in this "book" a method,
went outside to my tree, and drew nothing but blanks. After a while it's forks knives and spoons
simple as setting the table. The tree will become balanced using Kimuras method and you will
enjoy pinching back all the candles at the same time, then following up on any stragglers through May.
In this book, you will also read that it is fine to allow the candles to remain full, become shoots, then cut the shoots back.
This would work fine to reenergize a tree that was more on the weak side. I've never done this yet though.
I pinched back all candles 75% this week on my JWP, save for any very weak shoots I might want to keep.
Adair also advocates no fertilizer until the needle sheaths fall. I start a bit earlier than that, and as Brian mentions
fish emulsion, then there's seaweed extract that pairs well with that. Adair and many others also use Julian Adams's
Micromax about the time the candles are moving in Spring. So he does not skip micro nutrients at all. Plus Adairs trees are all refined.
I remember him mentioning a touch of fish emulsion in the past is fine once or twice.
Just wait till late Summer before thinking about full strength fertilizer once your tree is back on track to prevent longer needles.

When candles are midways open/closed is time to spray to lower needle cast pressure,
repeated once opened. Paired with Bonide systemic anti fungal granules.

have single clusters where the adjacent candles grow with differing strength

Could this be due to...

Just candle balance it as normal like every other candle

I'm not understanding the every other candle part. Could you explain?
Perhaps you're just stepping (progressing the steps) with the balancing method, with the every other candle terminology?