Candle with double candle growing at tip, what to do with this?

[Deep Sea Diver]

“I'm not understanding the every other candle part. Could you explain?”

Just me being a bit unclear!

Best
DSD sends

 

[JudyB]

I likes your JWP @JudyB
I have a mugo pine with triple heads on strong candles.
View attachment 541064
But like Frank, I've never seen them on my JWP. Mugo is single flush...normally.
Kimuras method is outlined in the "book" / collection, Bonsai Today Master Series PINES.
View attachment 541063
Be careful if you buy this book, as it is a collection of different styles and methods.
It can get confusing. Can't tell you how many times I've read in this "book" a method,
went outside to my tree, and drew nothing but blanks. After a while it's forks knives and spoons
simple as setting the table. The tree will become balanced using Kimuras method and you will
enjoy pinching back all the candles at the same time, then following up on any stragglers through May.
In this book, you will also read that it is fine to allow the candles to remain full, become shoots, then cut the shoots back.
This would work fine to reenergize a tree that was more on the weak side. I've never done this yet though.
I pinched back all candles 75% this week on my JWP, save for any very weak shoots I might want to keep.
Adair also advocates no fertilizer until the needle sheaths fall. I start a bit earlier than that, and as Brian mentions
fish emulsion, then there's seaweed extract that pairs well with that. Adair and many others also use Julian Adams's
Micromax about the time the candles are moving in Spring. So he does not skip micro nutrients at all. Plus Adairs trees are all refined.
I remember him mentioning a touch of fish emulsion in the past is fine once or twice.
Just wait till late Summer before thinking about full strength fertilizer once your tree is back on track to prevent longer needles.

When candles are midways open/closed is time to spray to lower needle cast pressure,
repeated once opened. Paired with Bonide systemic anti fungal granules.

Could this be due to...

I'm not understanding the every other candle part. Could you explain?
Perhaps you're just stepping (progressing the steps) with the balancing method, with the every other candle terminology?

Thanks, it seems to be a departure than most JWP I’ve seen in its structure. I do have that book, and did candle pinching already, in three waves. I don’t fertilize this early except for the bayer granules that are systemic insecticide with a bit of fertilizer built in. I am looking to do a spray soon for the prevention of needle cast.

 

[JudyB]

OK, so this just happened, the tree has made a secondary set of needles inside the new needles on the tip of the candle. The tree is obviously very healthy, needles are long though. I need to make sure that it has plenty of steam to set new buds to cut back to. I've never seen this happen before, it's like a second flush almost.... this tree is weird. Anyone seen this happen? Thoughts about management overall?

 

[Orion_metalhead]

My Rigida get these as well.

 

[Deleted member 47471]

Here is a photo of the whole, it just got a repot this spring, after one year of partial soil removal, as it was in old bad soil. (Brussels) . The tree exploded with new root growth from last year to this, so much so that I had to pry it out of the pot! So it's just putting on its happy face from being trapped in old soil to new growth I think. As to the needle cast, I wonder if that is damage from my wiring perhaps? The tree had also come to me with really old wire on it, and I took it all off last spring, let the tree breath and just rewired a few weeks ago. I will look at the needles closer and see if cast is possible, I see what you mean. Thanks Frank!
View attachment 538287

Beautiful wow

 

[Japonicus]

I have an EWP having a full on 2nd flush all over. My other EWP did the same last year after shedding all needles. Just when I thought it was dead.
I see no reason not to decandle 2nd flush if tree is healthy but would like more info 1st.

1st flush still opening new candles underway.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

Sorry to bring back this post!

I just wanted to ask do you use any humic or fulvic acid products on your pines?

I heard this can cause these double candles,

I'm a big believer in humates and this year I have whorls of candles on some new candles

 

[JudyB]

Sorry to bring back this post!

I just wanted to ask do you use any humic or fulvic acid products on your pines?

I heard this can cause these double candles,

I'm a big believer in humates and this year I have whorls of candles on some new candles

I have used humid acid, but have not on this tree. This tree absolutely blew up when the candles opened. I don’t know what caused so much long and unruly growth, unless it was just getting it fully into good soil. I’ll be chasing this for the next three years to get needle length back to a usable size.

 

[Dav4]

I have used humid acid, but have not on this tree. This tree absolutely blew up when the candles opened. I don’t know what caused so much long and unruly growth, unless it was just getting it fully into good soil. I’ll be chasing this for the next three years to get needle length back to a usable size.

My big JWP seems to grow quite vigorously immediately after a re-pot and for the following season as well. I suspect good soil and room for the roots to grow are the reasons.

 

[snowman04]

Do you happen to know if it is a Pinus parviflora Baldwin by any chance?

 

[JudyB]

Do you happen to know if it is a Pinus parviflora Baldwin by any chance?

This tree came from Brussels, seems like one they have had for some time. I don't know any details beyond that. I liked the unconventional shape and the bark, and the lack of a visible graft.

 

[JudyB]

My big JWP seems to grow quite vigorously immediately after a re-pot and for the following season as well. I suspect good soil and room for the roots to grow are the reasons.

Maybe so. I'll post a pic and get some feedback, but it's a shagalicious mess...

 

[JudyB]

Here are current photos, it's sad after it looked so nice after the wiring, that it's such a hot mess now... I'm actually not sure what to do from here at this point, I fear that all this growth will not allow light into the interior but now is probably a bad time for reductions. I have always needle plucked in the fall. Anyone with thoughts about where to go from here are very welcome, I'm hoping maybe @River's Edge Frank might have an idea... What did you do with yours @Dav4 ?

 

[JudyB]

My smaller JWP that I also moved out of old poor soil this spring did a bit of the same thing but not to the extent that the large tree did...

 

[Paradox]

Here are current photos, it's sad after it looked so nice after the wiring, that it's such a hot mess now... I'm actually not sure what to do from here at this point, I fear that all this growth will not allow light into the interior but now is probably a bad time for reductions. I have always needle plucked in the fall. Anyone with thoughts about where to go from here are very welcome, I'm hoping maybe @River's Edge Frank might have an idea... What did you do with yours @Dav4 ?

View attachment 553314View attachment 553315View attachment 553316

Sorry if you know this already but want to make sure.
Never pluck a JWP. You can damage the base buds. Take a fine pair of scissors and cut the upward and downward facing needles near the branch.

If the shoots are too long you can cut them back, leaving some of this year's needles in August. Number of needles left depends on strength of the shoot/area. Less in strong areas, more in weak if you cut those at all.
Doesn't look like you need to do that at this point though.

How much sun is it getting?

 

[JudyB]

Sorry if you know this already but want to make sure.
Never pluck a JWP. You can damage the base buds. Take a fine pair of scissors and cut the upward and downward facing needles near the branch.

If the shoots are too long you can cut them back, leaving some of this year's needles in August. Number of needles left depends on strength of the shoot/area. Less in strong areas, more in weak if you cut those at all.

Ah yes thanks, I do use my scissors to "pluck" not actually pulling, it's just the term that I am used to using. I have had several other JWP over the years, and have never had one do this before, most of mine put on refined needle growth each year... I do just what you are saying in the fall, so I will just have to avert my eyes until the proper time to reduce this mess.

 

[River's Edge]

Here are current photos, it's sad after it looked so nice after the wiring, that it's such a hot mess now... I'm actually not sure what to do from here at this point, I fear that all this growth will not allow light into the interior but now is probably a bad time for reductions. I have always needle plucked in the fall. Anyone with thoughts about where to go from here are very welcome, I'm hoping maybe @River's Edge Frank might have an idea... What did you do with yours @Dav4 ?

View attachment 553314View attachment 553315View attachment 553316

Selective needle reduction can be done. I would thin to allow light into the interior and keep the weaker foliage inside healthier! More important to use proper technique at this time of year and reduce sap loss or unesescary damage. With this in mind I would cut with scissors leaving small portion of the needles. If it involves removal of branches or larger shoots I would use sealant due to the flow level at this time of year. My preferred product for this purpose is below. I find it drys quickly and helps prevent excessive sap loss. The little green squeeze bottle, top right in the picture. Major component is a fast drying latex base. Hope the comments help.

 

[Dav4]

Here are current photos, it's sad after it looked so nice after the wiring, that it's such a hot mess now... I'm actually not sure what to do from here at this point, I fear that all this growth will not allow light into the interior but now is probably a bad time for reductions. I have always needle plucked in the fall. Anyone with thoughts about where to go from here are very welcome, I'm hoping maybe @River's Edge Frank might have an idea... What did you do with yours @Dav4 ?

View attachment 553314View attachment 553315View attachment 553316

I had similar questions and concerns about my smaller Japanese white pine. https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/will-it-form-buds-this-season-if-i-cut-back-now.60969/ It’s younger than yours, I suspect, but was sending out ridiculously long candles last year, and even after pinching they extended to an unusable length. Based on advice gathered here, I chose to shorten those candles by 50% Around the second week of July and keep my fingers crossed that buds formed below the cut. I’m happy to report that the tree had loads of buds formed by early fall. This year’s candles were much more manageable, but I’m still planning on cutting a few back next month Your mileage may vary due to your trees age.

 

[JudyB]

Selective needle reduction can be done. I would thin to allow light into the interior and keep the weaker foliage inside healthier! More important to use proper technique at this time of year and reduce sap loss or unesescary damage. With this in mind I would cut with scissors leaving small portion of the needles. If it involves removal of branches or larger shoots I would use sealant due to the flow level at this time of year. My preferred product for this purpose is below. I find it drys quickly and helps prevent excessive sap loss. The little green squeeze bottle, top right in the picture. Major component is a fast drying latex base. Hope the comments help.

Thanks so much Frank, can you try to attach the sealant photo again please? I'll be able to get light into the tree by reducing the number of needles without taking any branches, maybe a couple shoots.

I had similar questions and concerns about my smaller Japanese white pine. https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/will-it-form-buds-this-season-if-i-cut-back-now.60969/ It’s younger than yours, I suspect, but was sending out ridiculously long candles last year, and even after pinching they extended to an unusable length. Based on advice gathered here, I chose to shorten those candles by 50% Around the second week of July and keep my fingers crossed that buds formed below the cut. I’m happy to report that the tree had loads of buds formed by early fall. This year’s candles were much more manageable, but I’m still planning on cutting a few back next month Your mileage may vary due to your trees age.

Thanks Dave, I don't really have excess length on the candles themselves, it's just the length of the needles themselves for the most part. I'll go ahead and do the work now and hope my tree reacts like yours. It sure is vigorous, so I think with a little luck and lots of sun...

 

[JudyB]

Selective needle reduction can be done. I would thin to allow light into the interior and keep the weaker foliage inside healthier! More important to use proper technique at this time of year and reduce sap loss or unesescary damage. With this in mind I would cut with scissors leaving small portion of the needles. If it involves removal of branches or larger shoots I would use sealant due to the flow level at this time of year. My preferred product for this purpose is below. I find it drys quickly and helps prevent excessive sap loss. The little green squeeze bottle, top right in the picture. Major component is a fast drying latex base. Hope the comments help.

Thanks so much Frank, can you try to attach the sealant photo again please? I'll be able to get light into the tree by reducing the number of needles without taking any branches, maybe a couple shoots.

Thanks Dave, I don't really have excess length on the candles themselves, it's just the length of the needles themselves for the most part. I'll go ahead and do the work now and hope my tree reacts like yours. It sure is vigorous, so I think with a little luck and lots of sun...

What do the two of you suggest for fertilizer regimen after I do this work seeing the tree being so strong?
Good link to that tree Dave, thanks.