tmmason10
Omono
I love the use of OG in a bonsai thread. Nice.
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catfish chapstick
Chumono
Wow. This thread was really refreshing to read. A lot of opinions, name calling, anger, bragging, and name dropping. Glad everyone is so dramatic.
Here's my dramatic opinion. There can be no cheating because in art there can be no rules. If you fuse a million saplings into a gnarly blob and then trim it to have one branch that sticks out diagonally you still have not cheated (some might hesitate to call it bonsai). If you buy a finished specimen and show it the same day and win a prize, you still haven't cheated, unless a particular contest has particular rules. There shouldn't be rules against it. It's about the trees not the bonsai nerds that "collected" them or designed them.
Seriously though, if someone thinks they are the bonsai police and has to call out "cheaters" I think bonsai may have become mainstream.
Here's my dramatic opinion. There can be no cheating because in art there can be no rules. If you fuse a million saplings into a gnarly blob and then trim it to have one branch that sticks out diagonally you still have not cheated (some might hesitate to call it bonsai). If you buy a finished specimen and show it the same day and win a prize, you still haven't cheated, unless a particular contest has particular rules. There shouldn't be rules against it. It's about the trees not the bonsai nerds that "collected" them or designed them.
Seriously though, if someone thinks they are the bonsai police and has to call out "cheaters" I think bonsai may have become mainstream.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Wow. This thread was really refreshing to read. A lot of opinions, name calling, anger, bragging, and name dropping. Glad everyone is so dramatic.
Here's my dramatic opinion. There can be no cheating because in art there can be no rules. If you fuse a million saplings into a gnarly blob and then trim it to have one branch that sticks out diagonally you still have not cheated (some might hesitate to call it bonsai). If you buy a finished specimen and show it the same day and win a prize, you still haven't cheated, unless a particular contest has particular rules. There shouldn't be rules against it. It's about the trees not the bonsai nerds that "collected" them or designed them.
Seriously though, if someone thinks they are the bonsai police and has to call out "cheaters" I think bonsai may have become mainstream.
I respectfully but highly disagree with you. This is not Japan where it is indeed the tree that gets judged. Everybody already knows who the artists are and some idiot with a large check book will not be able to pull a fast one. In America----?????
bwaynef
Masterpiece
I believe that's one of the things that's holding bonsai in America back (at least regionally). Start looking at the trees for what they are and not who made them. When I attend our regional show, I could care less who made the trees, even if I know broadly which trees are whose. Unless entry into (real-world/not-forum-based) shows is mandated with very specific rules toward ownership/work, I believe the egos need to step out of the way.
Why should the best trees be left on the bench somewhere because they either were valued enough to have the best available hands doing the work (hiring professionals to do some of the work), ...or the chain of ownership recently received an additional link (someone bought a nice specimen).
If my group decides to participate in a show this year, I'll gladly pull my trees if there are better ones to take their spot.
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GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
I find this confusing. If I am reading this correctly the Japanese Competitions are fair and the United States shows are not. At the same time I know people from the States that have been invited to Japan to Judge in competition 
"worms flying out of the can ;P"
"worms flying out of the can ;P"
catfish chapstick
Chumono
is it not still the same tree whether you did the work or Ryan Neil? What is more than one artist had some input? What if nature made it entirely? The tree doesn't know who decided to position the apex and it shouldn't matter to the judge.
I see your point, that it means people can essentially buy a winning tree and skip all the work and knowledge that it takes to get there. It's like cheating in sports but bonsai is not a sport. It's all totally great to put trees up for critique or competition, but it's not like that's really what it's about. Make or find the best trees you possibly can. If it means buying them whatever, it's still the trees that we love not the artist/buyer/grower. At a car show the cars are what matters.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
If a show were to specify "own work", then I would hope that people would respect those rules and not enter a tree just purchased from, say, Ryan Neil. But even then, where do you draw the line? If the tree was taken to a few workshops, is it still "own work"? Is 1 workshop OK, or 2?
Ultimately, the only reason why I would care who "made" a tree is in case I have questions about how the tree was styled or developed, then I know who to ask (and it would enable me to look for other examples of that persons work if I like it). Otherwise, it doesn't really matter to me.
Chris
Ultimately, the only reason why I would care who "made" a tree is in case I have questions about how the tree was styled or developed, then I know who to ask (and it would enable me to look for other examples of that persons work if I like it). Otherwise, it doesn't really matter to me.
Chris
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
A discussion forum is a terrible place to compare apples and apples.
More often its apples and oranges that get compared. The problem with a forum is that there is a huge disparity between peoples overall knowledge of that being talked about at any given point in time. Part of, or mostly all of the problem lies in the fact that on a discussion forum such as this a pecking order is established and those with lessor knowledge continue to chip away at those with the knowledge and when confronted on the lack of knowledge a confrontation blows up and there ya go.
There is no way a person spouting huge amounts of knowledge about nearly every technique about bonsai without ever showing that they infact can take a tree from crappy bush to beautiful tree in a reasonable amount of time becomes a sore spot.
Wayne has sighted maybe this sort of thing is what holds back bonsai in America. The ego thing. While I think that is very true on discussion forums, I have never really seen that as a problem in the actual display venue. Bill Valavanes has had two very productive National exhibits and ownership nor who did the work has never been an issue. We have had four national Kazari competitions and ownwership and who did the work is not an issue. In fact we encourage people to enter, gathering components from wherever necessary to complete a proper display.
Borrow a tree, borrow and stand and scroll. heck the person entering the display may only actually own the accent plant and borrowed every other aspect of the diplay. the person designing the diplay is who gets judged not the individual components.
When I go to club shows and take in the individual components of the trees I can tell that the trees are the owners work. The trees look typically like the trees one would see at a club show. For instance in Monterey CA the same teacher that works our group works that group. I know which trees are his on display and which trees are students.
When I go to the Bay area CA and go to a Boon show, I have pretty much no idea which are Boon trees and which are student trees ( except I have seen most of Boons trees so I remember them.) Boon has some pretty strict rules about buying material from him and what gets shown in his exhibit. I know many people that are members of his club that do not display trees. Many of those tree would be at home in Monterey but not at a BIB exhibit.
These are observations I can make within my region. I know these people. I know what many of them are capable of. I do not need to ask if the did the work because I know if I see something very different than what I have seen for the last five years, I can pretty much be sure that they have bought a more refined or nearly finished piece and threw it on display.
Ethically, I don't need to subject either of us to the embarrising conversation of what has transpired. Now on the forum its a different animal. I am reminded of Alex DeRuiter recently showing some really nice shohin pines that he bought recently. The fact that he bought them is swell. He has every right to take any of them and put them in his next years club display. he could even put his name on them if he wanted. If I hadn't seen the thread and traveled back east on vacation and took in this display, I would never think otherwise that Alex didn't grow these from seed. Why would I?
We all get caught up in the discussion forums because we know each other as intimately as one can can with out marrying them. What people have to do is quit being so nosey and asking the questions in the first place, then this art can prosper and grow the way it does in real life, face to face!
More often its apples and oranges that get compared. The problem with a forum is that there is a huge disparity between peoples overall knowledge of that being talked about at any given point in time. Part of, or mostly all of the problem lies in the fact that on a discussion forum such as this a pecking order is established and those with lessor knowledge continue to chip away at those with the knowledge and when confronted on the lack of knowledge a confrontation blows up and there ya go.
There is no way a person spouting huge amounts of knowledge about nearly every technique about bonsai without ever showing that they infact can take a tree from crappy bush to beautiful tree in a reasonable amount of time becomes a sore spot.
Wayne has sighted maybe this sort of thing is what holds back bonsai in America. The ego thing. While I think that is very true on discussion forums, I have never really seen that as a problem in the actual display venue. Bill Valavanes has had two very productive National exhibits and ownership nor who did the work has never been an issue. We have had four national Kazari competitions and ownwership and who did the work is not an issue. In fact we encourage people to enter, gathering components from wherever necessary to complete a proper display.
Borrow a tree, borrow and stand and scroll. heck the person entering the display may only actually own the accent plant and borrowed every other aspect of the diplay. the person designing the diplay is who gets judged not the individual components.
When I go to club shows and take in the individual components of the trees I can tell that the trees are the owners work. The trees look typically like the trees one would see at a club show. For instance in Monterey CA the same teacher that works our group works that group. I know which trees are his on display and which trees are students.
When I go to the Bay area CA and go to a Boon show, I have pretty much no idea which are Boon trees and which are student trees ( except I have seen most of Boons trees so I remember them.) Boon has some pretty strict rules about buying material from him and what gets shown in his exhibit. I know many people that are members of his club that do not display trees. Many of those tree would be at home in Monterey but not at a BIB exhibit.
These are observations I can make within my region. I know these people. I know what many of them are capable of. I do not need to ask if the did the work because I know if I see something very different than what I have seen for the last five years, I can pretty much be sure that they have bought a more refined or nearly finished piece and threw it on display.
Ethically, I don't need to subject either of us to the embarrising conversation of what has transpired. Now on the forum its a different animal. I am reminded of Alex DeRuiter recently showing some really nice shohin pines that he bought recently. The fact that he bought them is swell. He has every right to take any of them and put them in his next years club display. he could even put his name on them if he wanted. If I hadn't seen the thread and traveled back east on vacation and took in this display, I would never think otherwise that Alex didn't grow these from seed. Why would I?
We all get caught up in the discussion forums because we know each other as intimately as one can can with out marrying them. What people have to do is quit being so nosey and asking the questions in the first place, then this art can prosper and grow the way it does in real life, face to face!
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Trees are trees; there are good trees and not so good trees. If the goal of a show is to display the best bonsai in a particular region then go for it, for a show in Michigan you should not be able to bring a tree in from California or New York that is not representative of that area and does not reside in that area. However if you have a contest to find the best bonsai in the country it does not make much difference where the trees come from or whose work they are, unless they are imported for the show from some other country and will be returned when the show is over.
When one considers that usually, on a local level, a show is as much about the grower of the tree as it is about the tree itself. Trees brought in by a Check Book Artist and represented as their own creative work is what causes the controversy. There are those who say that this is stupid and self defeating, trees should be allowed despite ownership? That may be, as long as it is not your ox that is being gored, or your efforts that are being marginalized. But; if you have put forward a lot of work to develop and prep a tree and some pendejo comes in with a tree that was designed and prepped by some professional grower and takes all of the marbles it tends to make those perennial non-winners to stop trying to improve their work. In the end; bonsai has not been forwarded at all, especially when one considers that the shelf life of one of these acquired masterpieces is usually not more than two years.
When one considers that usually, on a local level, a show is as much about the grower of the tree as it is about the tree itself. Trees brought in by a Check Book Artist and represented as their own creative work is what causes the controversy. There are those who say that this is stupid and self defeating, trees should be allowed despite ownership? That may be, as long as it is not your ox that is being gored, or your efforts that are being marginalized. But; if you have put forward a lot of work to develop and prep a tree and some pendejo comes in with a tree that was designed and prepped by some professional grower and takes all of the marbles it tends to make those perennial non-winners to stop trying to improve their work. In the end; bonsai has not been forwarded at all, especially when one considers that the shelf life of one of these acquired masterpieces is usually not more than two years.
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
I am not sure I understand this reasoning. For instance aren't most nursery mugo pines grown by Monrovia ( or silmiler) from California?
Or do you mean a more finished bonsai? In other words you would have a problem with me belonging to a club in Michigan while living in California and then coming once a year and entering my California grown tree in a Michigan show?
Why?
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
Kinda makes me want to toss out a few grand on a nice specimen and take it on a cross country journey to different shows 
Just kidding of course but I think that is more what he means.
Just kidding of course but I think that is more what he means.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Yes you do understand but you choose not to on this point. We have had this discussion many times before you very well know what I think and why I think it. However if you were a member of our club and you wanted to come all the way from California to one of our shows and enter one of your trees that you styled yourself you would be welcomed. If the tree was not your work you would be allowed to show the tree but as far as the award system is concerned, as it now stands, your tree would not be recognize as your work of art.
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nathanbs
Omono
Sooo are you saying you are not a fan of just about every show in Japan where the trees being displayed are owned typically by a bonsai collector but were made be others? I dont personally have a problem with it unless I was the guy that put the blood, sweat, and tears into it and didn't get credit. But i suppose the money i was paid for the tree or to work on the tree was the deal. Nobody said they were going to go around promoting my skills by announcing I made their tree.
nathanbs
Omono
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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The CHEAT that unfortunately I have been guilty of.
Wow, you're right, I should have made pop corn and more iced tea back around page 3.
There is a cheat that has not been mentioned here. I'm guilty of it.
The goal, was to have a pine tree, in a pot that looks like it is an old tree, say over 50 years old.
The Cheat: So I decided to cheat, bought a nice yamadori from Andy Smith, a ponderosa pine that Andy estimated to be about 175 or even 200 years old. Most expensive tree I ever bought, but hey, quality stock costs money. I finished establishing the tree, did a styling and now the cheat is complete. Instant bonsai right?
I now have a tree in a pot that barely looks 75 years old. Damn if all my fiddling with the tree didn't encourage juvenile looking growth. Aged bark got knocked off in the process. So now I have a tree, barely believable as 75 year old tree. Doubt it visually would pass for the 175 or 200 year old it probably is. (won't know exact age, without cutting a slice and counting rings, for discussion assume Andy was close in his estimate).
Is this cheating? Was it done well? (in my mind, no to both questions)
Everyone has their own reasons for growing bonsai, for most the social aspects are secondary. If I want to try out various "cheats" its my right to do so. Will I be able to do them well enough to be convincing? Doubtful. Of the several dozen Tanuki I have seen exhibited at shows, I have only seen two that I thought were convincing. Vast majority the technique was so obvious, the image was harmed by the evidence of the technique.
Exhibiting is a social activity (well, usually social, sometimes breaks down to anti-social).
Point is, at a show, its the appearance of the tree that counts, the display presented the viewer. As the American bonsai art matures, the audiences (those who go to shows) and exhibitors will focus less on the personalities behind the trees and more on the trees. To Vance's point, I think this will resolve itself with time. Bill Valvanis's National Show, has now had 3 exhibitions, and it really is helping the American bonsai scene to mature. In Japan, many know the trees exhibited on sight, and know the tree's histories the way some know batting careers of major league ball players. That is beginning to happen here too.
One thing that is crucial, to be an honest exhibitor, one must follow the rules for exhibiting for at the show the tree is being entered in. If a show entry form lists separate lines for OWNER, ARTIST, CARETAKER, and EXHIBITOR then the entries should be filled out as accurately as possible. If the show entry form lists only a single line, EXHIBITOR, then all the other details are not important. The who watered it, who owns it, who styled it, is not really a concern. Sure, inquiring minds might want to know, but these details are not being used as part of qualifying for that particular show. Not a big deal, making changes in this is as simple as the show committee making up the form.
If tanuki are allowed, great, if not, they should not be entered. No traffic cone fusion bonsai? Fine. Yes, to Traffic Cone Fusion Bonsai, fine! I'll send mine to that show. There is no set of show rules that apply to all shows all over the USA, or world for that matter. Each show is more or less free standing and independant, and each bonsai show can permit or prohibit different items as they see fit. Changing show rules is as simple as being there at the committee meeting on the day they draw up and approve the form. If you would like to see changes in your local shows, get involved. I am sure if you make it to 2 meetings, by the third meeting you will be asked to help out with something. There are no bonsai police. No Bonsai Law. Its a community of like minded people just muddling through, trying to have a little fun along the way. So let's pull together, rather than beat each other up.
Like others have said. Most of us do bonsai for our own reasons, often we have multiple reasons. For most of us, the public display of our trees is far from the primary reason we do it. I find the idea of exploring techniques to acheive quick results appealing. I will reserve judgement on what is "Cheating" or not, for the term only applies where there is a situation where there are "Rules". At home, the only rules are the ones I've agreed to. At the show, I have the "Show Rules".
In all honesty, Tanuki and Fusion bonsai are no threat to traditional bonsai. So few are ever done well enough that to worry about it is almost trivial. It is very difficult to hide the evidence of the technique and produce something that truely is art.
Wow, you're right, I should have made pop corn and more iced tea back around page 3.
There is a cheat that has not been mentioned here. I'm guilty of it.
The goal, was to have a pine tree, in a pot that looks like it is an old tree, say over 50 years old.
The Cheat: So I decided to cheat, bought a nice yamadori from Andy Smith, a ponderosa pine that Andy estimated to be about 175 or even 200 years old. Most expensive tree I ever bought, but hey, quality stock costs money. I finished establishing the tree, did a styling and now the cheat is complete. Instant bonsai right?
I now have a tree in a pot that barely looks 75 years old. Damn if all my fiddling with the tree didn't encourage juvenile looking growth. Aged bark got knocked off in the process. So now I have a tree, barely believable as 75 year old tree. Doubt it visually would pass for the 175 or 200 year old it probably is. (won't know exact age, without cutting a slice and counting rings, for discussion assume Andy was close in his estimate).
Is this cheating? Was it done well? (in my mind, no to both questions)
Everyone has their own reasons for growing bonsai, for most the social aspects are secondary. If I want to try out various "cheats" its my right to do so. Will I be able to do them well enough to be convincing? Doubtful. Of the several dozen Tanuki I have seen exhibited at shows, I have only seen two that I thought were convincing. Vast majority the technique was so obvious, the image was harmed by the evidence of the technique.
Exhibiting is a social activity (well, usually social, sometimes breaks down to anti-social).
Point is, at a show, its the appearance of the tree that counts, the display presented the viewer. As the American bonsai art matures, the audiences (those who go to shows) and exhibitors will focus less on the personalities behind the trees and more on the trees. To Vance's point, I think this will resolve itself with time. Bill Valvanis's National Show, has now had 3 exhibitions, and it really is helping the American bonsai scene to mature. In Japan, many know the trees exhibited on sight, and know the tree's histories the way some know batting careers of major league ball players. That is beginning to happen here too.
One thing that is crucial, to be an honest exhibitor, one must follow the rules for exhibiting for at the show the tree is being entered in. If a show entry form lists separate lines for OWNER, ARTIST, CARETAKER, and EXHIBITOR then the entries should be filled out as accurately as possible. If the show entry form lists only a single line, EXHIBITOR, then all the other details are not important. The who watered it, who owns it, who styled it, is not really a concern. Sure, inquiring minds might want to know, but these details are not being used as part of qualifying for that particular show. Not a big deal, making changes in this is as simple as the show committee making up the form.
If tanuki are allowed, great, if not, they should not be entered. No traffic cone fusion bonsai? Fine. Yes, to Traffic Cone Fusion Bonsai, fine! I'll send mine to that show. There is no set of show rules that apply to all shows all over the USA, or world for that matter. Each show is more or less free standing and independant, and each bonsai show can permit or prohibit different items as they see fit. Changing show rules is as simple as being there at the committee meeting on the day they draw up and approve the form. If you would like to see changes in your local shows, get involved. I am sure if you make it to 2 meetings, by the third meeting you will be asked to help out with something. There are no bonsai police. No Bonsai Law. Its a community of like minded people just muddling through, trying to have a little fun along the way. So let's pull together, rather than beat each other up.
Like others have said. Most of us do bonsai for our own reasons, often we have multiple reasons. For most of us, the public display of our trees is far from the primary reason we do it. I find the idea of exploring techniques to acheive quick results appealing. I will reserve judgement on what is "Cheating" or not, for the term only applies where there is a situation where there are "Rules". At home, the only rules are the ones I've agreed to. At the show, I have the "Show Rules".
In all honesty, Tanuki and Fusion bonsai are no threat to traditional bonsai. So few are ever done well enough that to worry about it is almost trivial. It is very difficult to hide the evidence of the technique and produce something that truely is art.
nathanbs
Omono
Sorry i'm late to the party but what fun you've all had while I was gone. On the subject of tanukis, sometimes making a believable tree out of an amazing deadwood carcass is a better option than firewood. Some well done tanukis have fetched tens of thousands of dollars in Japan. That's nothing compared to the 100,000+ it could have fetched if it were authentic. Typically everyone involved in the transaction is well aware of the "fraud" but for a fraction of the price why not. As for "fused" frankenstein trees, who cares how the tree was achieved its the end result. Does anyone care whether the tree is heavy as a hog or not? So if it were to be filled with mortar and it were to no longer be hollow and light would it be acceptable?
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Redwood Ryan
Masterpiece
It's alright guys, I think we've won 
nathanbs
Omono
It's alright guys, I think we've won
FWIW i just read both threads in their entirety and Ryan although Marco was out of line more so than yourself you could learn something from the whole experience. You weren't exactly cordial and eloquent in your approach and discussion with him. Its not about winning or losing or teams or cliques its about bonsai. Hopefully the dust can settle and we go back to making trees the way each of us chooses
Redwood Ryan
Masterpiece
Well I didn't start the whole argument, and it wasn't even necessary. That wasn't even a discussion, that was him trying to convince me I was wrong for no reason. I hate how I'm being made out to be the bad guy or even that I was "out of line" just because I was trying to defend myself.
nathanbs
Omono
oh well nothing learned I guess.
