Bonsai and Art A continuation of What defines a Good Bonsai from the Also Rans....

[sorce]

You are about to enter the ----------- BEAUTY -------------------- zone ------------- beware

What is BEAUTY ?

Beauty is TRUTH UNHIDDEN

So you wish to push your TREE into the beauty zone.
Have you studied the basics ----- pattern, design. negative positive space.................................
There is HIGH ART, low art and High craft, low craft.

To take a tree there you must have more than your feelings. [K ]
Good Luck.

@sorce ,

Today we can use earthenware clay, frit to achieve very low [ 1% ] porous fired bodies, that also FAST FIRE [ as you make it, you can fire it ]
If you choose a clay body that uses a very plastic clay and around 70% particles that are not plastic.
The frit and other components, will allow the clay to dry rapidly.

There is no need to cross 1020 deg.C so your firing cost will go lower.

I fire my bodies to cone 08 [ 983 deg,C ]

We also do not smoke up our kilns to do REDUCTION firing, we use compounds, easily available to do the reducing.

You need to do tests and read [ K ]

See TEST KILNS ------------- easy to build.

Good Day
Anthony and [K]

Thank you...

Do you still have that slab building video handy?

Sorce

 

[my nellie]

So, Anthony and Sorce you are having a material lesson out of this unhappy situation
What about a little more Philosophizing?
Why not, if we are going to earn some moral out of this unhappy situation.

Peace pot bro.... Break out the peace pot....

Making peace, searching out for peace, IS a virtue. You are a young man gifted with a virtue. Keep it, son!
However,

... ...We have a responsibility to take care of These newbs, no matter how old they are... ...

Don't you think that people at my age (64) or Bolero's age ought to have understanding of their selves, their level/status and their standing point into a specific community (as Bonsai is)? And this understanding IS also a virtue, that's why I referred to self-awareness above. Don't you think that us elder ought to present a "better" character to you younger people?

"To effectively communicate we must understand we are all different in the way we perceive the world and use this understanding as a guide to our communication with others"
Good words to live by from Mr. Robbins right there... not one of my favorite people to quote, but I like this one.

Then, there is not a constant? And then, is there objectivity?

 

[Anthony]

Alexandria,

if you look at the Education level of say Mashiko Kimura and a few of the European teachers,
note, where their education ends, then ask do they read.

These Art type discussion go no where because the idea of Art is seen as Colin F. showed it,
in the D and K study.

Why read, just experience, lets drop off 5000+ years of human thought.

So you learn styles of trees, stop observing, or drawing [ collecting retainable visual information ]
and then copy, copy, copy.

Because trees will do as they may, the copies are never perfect. So now you are an "individual" and possibly an 'artist.'

To complicate it further, add on thingees, tables, scrolls, fancy dancy pots ....................
Run the risk of Bonsai becoming some sort of effeminate practice and being a whooosie man.

Eventually, the Fine Artists / Sculptors will turn their eyes to Bonsai and that's the end of the tom foolery.
It will become a Fine Art to the exclusion of the unlearned.
This is why K has been quietly researching and experimenting with Holograms.
As you know the trees outgrow the design, technology is needed to hang on a museum wall and honour the
man / woman who created the design.

No more of this bull tatter rubbish about many folk needed to create great bonsai, enjoy the journey rubbish.

X made a great design, and it is contemplateable, X gets the claps.

We live in the 22nd century.

Good Day
Anthony

@sorce ------------ will look for it for you. Find Richard Berens in the Library, try his Egyptian Paste / fire to melt down to
observe. [ K ]

 

[Eric Group]

Oh alright @Eric Group; you're right, that's enough snark for one thread. Sometimes you just have to get it out of your system.
Here we go:
View attachment 136950

Ah, peaceful bunnies . . . thanks for the reminder @sorce.

See... don't you feel better?

 

[my nellie]

@Anthony and K as well : You give me reason to continue insisting on philosophy!

… … No more of this bull tatter rubbish about many folk needed to create great bonsai, enjoy the journey rubbish.

Do you agree that what you have written involves Modesty?

… …X made a great design, and it is contemplateable, X gets the claps.

And do you agree that this involves lack of Real Substance and Arrogance?

... ...We live in the 22nd century.

It’s a tragedy, we managed to live in 22nd century but have advanced only in regards of time (which is also an illusion) and not in perceiving what truth is….

"Ithaka" - Constantine P. Cavafy - Thomas Sean Connery in recitation of the poem

Highly dedicated to all modest “philosophers” out there, in great hopes that someone will read and hear…….

 

[sorce]

Don't you think that us elder ought to present a "better" character to you younger people?

Define "better"!

I'm OK with, Only Real from Self.

Which is what Bolero presents himself as.

My grandparents did not "hate", but they were "racist", such was it then....

If I took that as "better", I would be worse.

I think it's the responsibility of the youth, to Respect our Elders number one.
Then, and only then, is the atmosphere created where the youth can benefit from wisdom* by Understanding the lives of the elders.

It is up to the youth to take this Understanding and make themselves better with it.

Wisdom* is not good or bad.
Merely knowledge.
Application of that knowledge, makes it good or bad.

To me....
This applies here to the same degree....
Except this is only a bonsai forum!
So I don't understand spending energies on any negative, especially when that negative is only brought about by a misunderstanding, or a lack of wisdom!

In short.....
We can spend time Understanding someone.

Or waste it criticising them when we don't even know why we are!

Sorce

 

[ColinFraser]

Now go delete those instagram pics!
FWIW...I didn't even know you Had an instagram!
Bolero did! I find that odd!

Haha, it's in my signature on here. Do you remember when you started the elm "selfie" thread, and a bunch of older nuts didn't really know what a selfie was . . . yeah. I should thank you guys for the plug though - I got a nice little wave of new followers

See... don't you feel better?

Much.

 

[Vance Wood]

Define "better"!

I'm OK with, Only Real from Self.

Which is what Bolero presents himself as.

My grandparents did not "hate", but they were "racist", such was it then....

If I took that as "better", I would be worse.

I think it's the responsibility of the youth, to Respect our Elders number one.
Then, and only then, is the atmosphere created where the youth can benefit from wisdom* by Understanding the lives of the elders.

It is up to the youth to take this Understanding and make themselves better with it.

Wisdom* is not good or bad.
Merely knowledge.
Application of that knowledge, makes it good or bad.

To me....
This applies here to the same degree....
Except this is only a bonsai forum!
So I don't understand spending energies on any negative, especially when that negative is only brought about by a misunderstanding, or a lack of wisdom!

In short.....
We can spend time Understanding someone.

Or waste it criticising them when we don't even know why we are!

Sorce

 

[my nellie]

Define "better"!
I will give you a definition using your own quote.

… …My grandparents did not "hate", but they were "racist", such was it then.... If I took that as "better", I would be worse.
But you did not and this makes you better than your grandparents.

… …Wisdom* is not good or bad. Merely knowledge. Application of that knowledge, makes it good or bad.

This is a simplified aphorism, I mean “merely knowledge”
Wisdom is experience gained. Wisdom is the ability to see the difference between two things and choose the one correct/appropriate/right. Wisdom is the ability to transfuse knowledge in serenity and peace. Wisdom is the ability to stay calm/unaltered in any case.
I could write a lot more but English is so poor when you need to interpret from Greek…..

… …In short.....We can spend time Understanding someone.Or waste it criticising them when we don't even know why we are!

I believe there will be no one to disagree with you!

 

[Adair M]

Eventually, the Fine Artists / Sculptors will turn their eyes to Bonsai and that's the end of the tom foolery.
It will become a Fine Art to the exclusion of the unlearned.
This is why K has been quietly researching and experimenting with Holograms.
As you know the trees outgrow the design, technology is needed to hang on a museum wall and honour the
man / woman who created the design.



@sorce ------------ will look for it for you. Find Richard Berens in the Library, try his Egyptian Paste / fire to melt down to
observe. [ K ]

Anthony,

Dude, you and K don't get it. Bonsai is not a static Art. It is dynamic. The image we see today will not be the same image a decade from now.

And here's the rub: the Great trees, the ones admired for generations, are trained so that there will always a future for the tree. That is why we want foliage close to the trunk so that there will be new growth we can use when the old branches get too long.

That is also why the common practices of pinching and shearing lead to failure. Sure, they promote dense canopies with lots of ramification that look good "now", but what is happening on the interior? Shade. Shade kills. Interior foliage doesn't produce enough energy to sustain itself, so the tree cuts it off. The interior becomes dead. The bonsai becomes "a green helmet".

Unfortunately, I see a lot of these. Trees that once were nice bonsai, but have been ruined by years of improper pruning, pinching, and shearing.

Now, don't get me wrong, a long term plan is good. Sure, make a drawing, a virt, and use that as a guide to begin. But even if you achieve that, plan for "what's next?"

For trees are not static. They must continue to grow, else they die. You see, trees don't just "be". Never static. They are always growing, changing. Or they die.

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,

you need to remember two things about how it works down here -----------

[1] Historically ------ tree penjing were used to stimulate the mind, the thoughts that go to create great paintings, poetry, prose,sculpture.
Not as an ornament.

[2] A hologram allows, the tree to be seen through different eyes / ideas. Each persons effort recorded, as the tree keeps on out living
it's caretaker.

In nature if you stand under say a mango tree, you can see where the light is too weak or it fails, the tree loses the inner growth.
But Sifu, that is a normal observation, and so why would one want to make a tree over dense ?

Long term planning for us can be as little as 5 to 10 years.
One lessen we learnt from a mother elm, was that in 3 years or so, fine branches become thick.
Often you have tor start over.
That is what's next, another drawn design and you go on.

But remember K is a Traditional Oil Painter and his paintings are finished thoughts, so he can easily adapt to the changeable
nature of Bonsai. Time has no meaning,
Good Day
Anthony, the weeder

* Alexandria, I will return, in the middle of planning a waterfall.

 

[M. Frary]

We can spend time Understanding someone.

Or waste it criticising them when we don't even know why we are!

Or just ignore them altogether.
That's more time to think of what's really important.
Like what's for dinner.

 

[Adair M]

Sifu,

you need to remember two things about how it works down here -----------

[1] Historically ------ tree penjing were used to stimulate the mind, the thoughts that go to create great paintings, poetry, prose,sculpture.
Not as an ornament.

[2] A hologram allows, the tree to be seen through different eyes / ideas. Each persons effort recorded, as the tree keeps on out living
it's caretaker.

In nature if you stand under say a mango tree, you can see where the light is too weak or it fails, the tree loses the inner growth.
But Sifu, that is a normal observation, and so why would one want to make a tree over dense ?

Long term planning for us can be as little as 5 to 10 years.
One lessen we learnt from a mother elm, was that in 3 years or so, fine branches become thick.
Often you have tor start over.
That is what's next, another drawn design and you go on.

But remember K is a Traditional Oil Painter and his paintings are finished thoughts, so he can easily adapt to the changeable
nature of Bonsai. Time has no meaning,
Good Day
Anthony, the weeder

* Alexandria, I will return, in the middle of planning a waterfall.

The difference, Anthony, we are not trying to keep a full size tree in a small pot. We are trying to keep a tree dwarfed. To keep it from growing ever larger, yes, we have to cut it back when the limbs get too long. If there is no live growth closer to the trunk, where are you going to cut back to? On pines, if you cut all the green off a branch, the branch dies. Some deciduous trees can take s hard cutback and pop out new shoots. It all depends on the species of tree.

But to keep a bonsai in pretty much the same size, it's a matter of cutting back. And to have some place to cut back to, you have to encourage interior foliage. Failure to do so results in green helmets with an outside perimeter of foliage and an inter scaffolding of long spindly bare branches. And the bonsai slowly gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger. Then what happens, is the owner has to get larger and larger pots! I have repotted trees where I have found 4 layers of screen wire on the bottom the root ball where the owner had simply uppotted the tree to ever increasingly larger pots over the past twenty years. Sorry, that's not doing bonsai. I see that a lot. These people THINK they're doing bonsai, but they're not. At least not good bonsai.

I'm sorry to rant, but it bothers me when I see people doing bad bonsai simply due to ignorance. It usually takes no more effort to do some thing right vs something wrong. So, I try to teach people how to do things right. Because doing things wrong can set the tree back, at best, it will have to done again to correct what was done wrong.

Ok, I'm done!

 

[Anthony]

Alexandria,

I am about to disappoint you.
As Philosophy goes, I am afraid what we have is just English [ UK ] pre-war commonsense.

I will try to illustrate.

Most folk who get into Bonsai are impatient.
So they are perfect for sales.They wouldn't do like us and say, hey I can grow a seed of that.
They just jump in and purchase. Mallsai.

Even when K got permission from his Dad to use his credit card, to order pre-bonsai, the limitation
was 20 US plus 10 for shipping, once a month.
So the Texas Ebony you might see is from 1980 and started life as a 3" bent seedling.

Note the written comments on say Masahiko Kimura. At around 16 he goes to study with a master.
The master's name is the opening.
So where are the studies in Art? Or are they just gardeners ?

What the North Americans might be trying to do is add back in the Art.
But that will require lessons.

What the Japanese do is copy and change is very slow.

Bonsai in Japan is a business, and runs on business rules.
Bonsai in North America is a hobby and is becoming an Art Form.
BUT how will it survive as an Art Form, who will purchase the effort and who will water it.

When you buy a painting or sculpture you place where best seen and dust once in a while.

So unless the Art part can produce $$$, then how will it grow, or support itself ?

As a backyard hobby, no problem.

Because we live on a small island, we grow from seed, make the pots and if need be we could
drop forge the concave pruner [ but they are only 12 US on Amazon and as long as they are
oiled and cut only matchstick thick twigs, will last forever.]

Bonsai is a perfect hobby, cost very little, as we also make our own compost and the silica
gravel is abundant on the island as is crushed red earthenware brick.

Start an acre of a Bonsai Museum and the trees are protected [ it's in the works ]
Additionally - holograms - and each person gets a try as the tree ages.

So perhaps what should be discussed is why get Art lessons?
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,

try grafting and also Bonsai from hedging material.
I apologise if the response seems flippant, but we already noted that J.B.pines might need grafts with extreme
time, and I remember you typing a bit on having to graft as well.

Additionally, overgrown, start over.

Good Day
Anthony

 

[M. Frary]

I hated art class in school.
So I think bonsai is horticultural manipulation that becomes pleasing to the eye.
I don't know art and what I perceive as a great tree others might think it's not.
I like the refined trees like Adairs a lot and Vances mugo pines are something to behold. But on the other hand some wild looking trees like Groupers trees can take your breath away too.
All I know for sure is when you see a great tree in person and you can't seem to take your eyes off of it you know for sure its great.
The first time I met Vance I went to the club show. I walked right past him and every other person in the place to go look at his quasi raft mugo known now as The Drunken Dragon.
I must have stood there for 10 minutes just looking at it. I had never seen any other persons bonsai but my puny efforts at the time. I couldn't not look at it. During the whole 2 days I was there I kept going back to look at again and again. It captivated me. It made me it's slave.
That's what a great world class bonsai does to a person.
That tree has made me it's bitch. Not only for its beauty but for the love and care and vision one man had for this tree. To this day when I see Vance I ask about it. When I went to his house I had to go look at it first. I felt honored to go steal some moss from trees in the nursery to put on it. And I even got to hold it! Well carry it in to the show 2 years ago.
For me its not just about the tree itself. It's about the whole.
It wasn't a pre bonsai when he started. It was sitting in a nursery waiting to be a landscape tree until Vance came along. And then it became a labor of love.
A really great tree will get in your head. Won't leave you alone. Calls to you. Makes you feel good. Makes you want to make and have one. Makes you look at your trees more critically. Makes you want to be better at Bonsai.
That's what I call a great bonsai.

 

[Adair M]

Anthony, when Kimura was an apprentice, yes, he was forced to copy his Master's style. For as long as he was an apprentice. Once he was out on his own, he was free to do his own thing! And he did!

At first, the establishment bonsai groups in Japan didn't like his style! Thought he was a rebel, a troublemaker. Undaunted, he persisted, and slowly his work began to become appreciated. And then revered. He became "The Magician"! Considered one of the greatest of all time. But not at first. And first he had to learn the fundamentals.

All those great painter artists in Europe you speak so highly of went thru the same thing. And even they had apprentices.

Back on topic:

Grafting is a last resort when nothing else has worked. Or the tree has been neglected so long there is no possibility to back bud. Planning on grafting to overcome poor bonsai horticultural skills is kinda like someone saying that they'll just put in a new motor in a car when the old one dies because they didn't want to ever change the oil.

 

[eferguson1974]

I think everyone would benefit if we all learn to "agree to disagree". In all aspects of life.
And I totally agree and relate to Sorce, why be negative? Younger people should be taught to respect age and experience also.
Some people are happy watching "comedy" or drama on tv. I wouldn't know what channels they are on, because when I can watch tv (big hassle for me to get cable. Mucho $) I watch Learning Channel or History Channel or Nat Geo or gardening stuff. Ignorance is not bliss for me. If I'm not learning about something I am bored. Learning is living in my opinion or philosophy. So bonsai is good for me, I could never hope to "know it all" about bonsai, there is always going to be more to learn. And always more inventions, experiments, ideas and inspirations to have and do.
It seems to me that the bonsai keeping is generally done by people who have higher than average intelligence. We are all on our own personal journeys in life. Bnut is a gathering place of many intelligent people who mostly get along because we understand "fighting " over bonsai is futile.
What makes a good bonsai? I readily admit to being a newby, but I would say a good bonsai is one that catches your attention in a good way. And what catches your eye ( no one specific) might not catch mine. I guess a great bonsai would be one that calls many bnut's attention. Some folks dont like banyan style for instance. I do, others dont. So to me a good one is one that stands out from others. What makes a good literati? That alone could could be, and has been discussed, a long thread.
I don't know personally if only learning bonsai online (for now) has given me weird ideas. But I'll be starting over with bonsai when I get back to the states where I can join clubs and meet teachers. I can't wait! Hands on, guided experience can only help. Here I got past the collect everything stage, and learned that some or most trees have little hope of being a "great" bonsai that calls everyone's attention. I may never have a great bonsai but I will learn from my trees and that makes them all great, to me.
Good thread, sorry for the long post.

 

[sorce]

e. If I'm not learning about something I am bored.

I feel you.

That and creating.

I can't go a couple days without creating something.

Can't wait to get you back up here!

Sorce