Bjorn Apprenticeship

[Wulfskaar]

So you're of the opinion that Bjorn ought to pay you for the privilege to teach you? Some might find that idea conceited.


Here in VA it is the norm for mid-to-high skill candidates, only they want you to commute up to DC (3 hours either way from Richmond on a good day), work for nothing except experience, and you get to go back home and sleep for two hours so you can work your midnight shift at the warehouse. You are projecting why you THINK Bjorn presents the position this way, when in reality if you don't like the descritption you are the exact kind of person who is not being sought for the apprenticeship.

I did 6 years in the military. I already know how to show up early, sweep floors, clean bathrooms, do menial tasks all day for 6-7 days a week. At least they paid me to do it, enough to live off of anyways.

Then it says it's mostly self teaching. Sounds like a way to get free labor to me. I'll keep my paying job and take classes if I need to learn something.

People are acting like he has some special Japanese knowledge that you can only learn if you wax on, wax off and paint the fence and polish the cars. This is a ploy for free labor.

 

[Shogun610]

I interrupt this reeeeee with some soothing Bonsai imaginative Chillhop

 

[Mikecheck123]

I interrupt this reeeeee with some soothing Bonsai imaginative Chillhop

I'd definitely be listening to this if I was unwiring Bjorn's trees for free all summer.

 

[Nybonsai12]

I'd definitely be listening to this if I was unwiring Bjorn's trees for free all summer.

And you’d be pocketing that wire like it was a blood diamond.

 

[Mikecheck123]

And what's this about?

"Include an attached current profile picture of yourself as well."

Hotties only!

 

[HankDio]

I did 6 years in the military. I already know how to show up early, sweep floors, clean bathrooms, do menial tasks all day for 6-7 days a week. At least they paid me to do it, enough to live off of anyways.

Then it says it's mostly self teaching. Sounds like a way to get free labor to me. I'll keep my paying job and take classes if I need to learn something.

People are acting like he has some special Japanese knowledge that you can only learn if you wax on, wax off and paint the fence and polish the cars. This is a ploy for free labor.

There is clearly some dissonance here.

I studied comparative grammar, Spanish legal and medical translation and interpretation, took the state tests, and studied abroad for a school year. That’s a combined 6 years of specialized education and non-profits and law firms STILL only offered me unpaid, uncompensated internships for my skills. Point being: your resume doesn’t guarantee income, and the fact that you did your job for money doesn’t mean others only work towards capitol. Some work for fulfillment. If you get the two conflated, I have no other input to offer.

 

[Zerobear]

For those interested. Quite a commitment!

Eisei-en Apprenticeship Application – Eisei-en

bjornbjorholm.com

Limited verbal instruction? Probably if Bjorn is working on a tree and you stop to watch him silently work while totally ignoring you, he will eventually turn to you and say, "Aren't there some weeds you need to be pulling, or a pallet of dirt to unload? Chop Chop, round eyes."

 

[Shogun610]

Man ya’ll are over thinking this… if you can swing it … apply , if not … there are other apprenticeships / intensives out there .

 

[rockm]

I did 6 years in the military. I already know how to show up early, sweep floors, clean bathrooms, do menial tasks all day for 6-7 days a week. At least they paid me to do it, enough to live off of anyways.

Then it says it's mostly self teaching. Sounds like a way to get free labor to me. I'll keep my paying job and take classes if I need to learn something.

People are acting like he has some special Japanese knowledge that you can only learn if you wax on, wax off and paint the fence and polish the cars. This is a ploy for free labor.

He DOES have particular knowledge and experience in one of the best bonsai nurseries in Japan with whom he maintains regular communications and contacts deep within the Japanese bonsai community where he sources trees, pots, etc. So unless you want to take the same leap and devote 10 years building similar relationships, and expertise, saying that its only about 'free labor' is silly and yawningly cynical.

IT'S BOTH THINGS--learning and free labor--for crying out loud.

And yes, laboring for free IS a hugely valid way to begin working in a field you want to get into. I did it 40 years ago, hustling local reporting for a newspaper. Led to contacts, more work and a paycheck. It's not a new path. Mostly you get bumped, smacked upside the head and learn the ropes just by being in that environment.

Do you really think this job is just about sweeping up pruning leftovers? If you do, you're not really being fair. Hell, the guy is going to hand you the biz to handle by yourself while he's gone. Learning is hardly done exclusively behind a desk or in a classroom. I know the volunteer help at the National Arb's collection are tasked sometimes to help prune the trees there, as well as sweep up. They work for free...

 

[BrierPatch]

Tell it to the Department of Justice, LOL. We're talking US labor law here, not peoples' opinions. What works in Japan may not work here in the US. My advice about being careful still stands - not as a negative but a positive. I don't want any bonsai group to structure a program in such a way that someone can come back and sue you three years after the fact because you ran afoul of the law. The fines can be quite punitive.

Labor laws differ a lot from state to state and on how they classify work. Example... And no I'm not a Lawyer I Googled it.

In Tennessee where Eisei-en is located:
Tennessee does not have minimum wage laws and, thus, does not address subminimum wage rates employers may pay to apprentices. Because most employers and employees in Tennessee are subject to the federal Fair Labor Standards Act, the standards for minimum wage rates for apprentices set forth in that law typically apply.

In My State Washington:
Employers can also pay some workers less than the state minimum wage, including: Minors 14 to 15 years old (no less than 85% of minimum wage). Workers who meet certain criteria (see below). Jobs that are exempt from the Minimum Wage Act. Employers can apply for a sub-minimum wage certificate in the following areas: Certificated on-the-job learners (no less than 85% of minimum wage). Certificated student workers and student learners (no less than 75% of minimum wage). Certificated workers with disabilities. Certain apprentices.
L&I warns employers that, while they may cover expenses by way of a stipend or reimbursement, they categorically cannot compensate their interns with regular pay. Essentially, according to L&I, there is no such thing as a paid intern in Washington.
As for that stipend, Washington employers considering any form of internship program are advised to work with experienced counsel to avoid running afoul of the state’s wage and hour laws.

 

[BrianBay9]

Labor laws differ a lot from state to state and on how they classify work. Example... And no I'm not a Lawyer I Googled it.

In Tennessee where Eisei-en is located:
Tennessee does not have minimum wage laws and, thus, does not address subminimum wage rates employers may pay to apprentices. Because most employers and employees in Tennessee are subject to the federal Fair Labor Standards Act, the standards for minimum wage rates for apprentices set forth in that law typically apply.

In My State Washington:
Employers can also pay some workers less than the state minimum wage, including: Minors 14 to 15 years old (no less than 85% of minimum wage). Workers who meet certain criteria (see below). Jobs that are exempt from the Minimum Wage Act. Employers can apply for a sub-minimum wage certificate in the following areas: Certificated on-the-job learners (no less than 85% of minimum wage). Certificated student workers and student learners (no less than 75% of minimum wage). Certificated workers with disabilities. Certain apprentices.
L&I warns employers that, while they may cover expenses by way of a stipend or reimbursement, they categorically cannot compensate their interns with regular pay. Essentially, according to L&I, there is no such thing as a paid intern in Washington.
As for that stipend, Washington employers considering any form of internship program are advised to work with experienced counsel to avoid running afoul of the state’s wage and hour laws.

Yeah, I think it was Microsoft who abused "permanent" temps and unpaid interns a couple of decades ago that lead to a lot of changes to labor laws in Washington and federal. I think it cost them about $100 million to settle.

 

[coh]

It sounds to me like pretty much the Japanese apprenticeship model that Bjorn, Ryan and others went through in Japan - except in the US. I would think the pool of potential applicants would be pretty small, but if you consider there are always a few Americans willing to go spend 5+ years in Japan doing the exact same thing, there will definitely be some takers. It removes the big issues related to language and dealing with a foreign culture. I do find the requirement for a car to be interesting - that's an add on cost that you wouldn't have in Japan. Also not clear what the "allowance" would be for housing and incidentals - enough to cover those costs completely? Some Japanese apprenticeships provide lodging on site, don't they?

As for teaching...if Bjorn had to spend all his time teaching the apprentice directly, that would kind of defeat the purpose. He might as well just hire some cheap labor to do the menial stuff and then do the tree work himself.

 

[Shogun610]

You can also make a montage of your apprenticeship with this song

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

The "Master Craftsman/Apprentice Relationship" makes MUCH less sense to not only people raised in Western Society....

But also those raised in privilege...

These 'ways'(any "master trade") traditionally, in WESTERN civilization, but definitely not ONLY, are passed down generationally.

So your KIDS/nephews/nieces ect... learn the true specifics of the craft while being "used for free labor"..

This exists heavily in secluded portions of the East where you have the "Pottery Villages" or "Calligraphy villages"....

So if you want to learn that Master's "Craft".... you have to learn the way THEY do.. THROUGH the labor. Just like their family would.

Definitely NOT for everyone...

MORE Westerners will have problems with this 'plan'..

And even more of those who come from "comfort" will ALSO have problems.

If you have problems, don't apply.

But understand the reasons and process.

Bjorns not gonna kidnap you... it's ok.

Nah bro, we have practical schools where you do two years of internships without pay if the company decides so. Super European!
Car mechanics, electricians, woodworkers, and so on.
But, it's shifting towards companies not being able to find new kids because the kids are getting smarter: pick the companies that pay and intend to offer you a job, instead of the 'work your ass off for the experience' and throw yourself into debt.
Why get experience and debt.. If you can get both money and experience?

University level internships are required by law to be paid for by the hiring company. Because simply put, the system was outdated and flawed. I did some internships before that time and the experience got me absolutely nothing because I switched from social studies to biochem.

Hearing from Bjorn and Ryan, and the other bonsai people out there, that the break even point of most bonsai businesses is around 15-25 years, I think Japanese style internships are a sure way to never get financially healthy unless you're super awesome at something else as well (online marketing, being a public figure, etc.).

I'm not against it as a whole, but having experienced this kind of stuff myself for a combined 4 years.. I'm sceptical of the chances of even moderate success. Bonsai is, and always will be, a niche.

Let's say my gramps comes back alive and offers the same programme for bricklaying and making wooden shoes instead of bonsai. Do you think people would go for it, costing them about 2000 a month but being paid in experience? I honestly don't think so. Youtube provides all the tutorials!

 

[River's Edge]

I see the job description as weeding out the unserious candidates up front with dose of reality

Simply this. The successful candidate will understand the potential benefits and be comfortable with the arrangement.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Nah bro, we have practical schools where you do two years of internships without pay if the company decides so. Super European!
Car mechanics, electricians, woodworkers, and so on.
But, it's shifting towards companies not being able to find new kids because the kids are getting smarter: pick the companies that pay and intend to offer you a job, instead of the 'work your ass off for the experience' and throw yourself into debt.
Why get experience and debt.. If you can get both money and experience?

University level internships are required by law to be paid for by the hiring company. Because simply put, the system was outdated and flawed. I did some internships before that time and the experience got me absolutely nothing because I switched from social studies to biochem.

Hearing from Bjorn and Ryan, and the other bonsai people out there, that the break even point of most bonsai businesses is around 15-25 years, I think Japanese style internships are a sure way to never get financially healthy unless you're super awesome at something else as well (online marketing, being a public figure, etc.).

I'm not against it as a whole, but having experienced this kind of stuff myself for a combined 4 years.. I'm sceptical of the chances of even moderate success. Bonsai is, and always will be, a niche.

Let's say my gramps comes back alive and offers the same programme for bricklaying and making wooden shoes instead of bonsai. Do you think people would go for it, costing them about 2000 a month but being paid in experience? I honestly don't think so. Youtube provides all the tutorials!

That makes complete sense!

But imagine.. if watching him making wooden shoes inspired YOU.. and you wanted to learn.. and you're family.. So he teaches you as you work WITH him. Making no real "paycheck".. but getting fed, clothed and sheltered.. cause your his kid(grandkid)..

Soon it's your business.. and you can take this amalgam of Artistry/Workmanship NOW Possessing not just your Father's(Grandfather) Passion of craft.. but also YOUR "fingerprints".. and pass it along to someone younger, most likely in your family.. caaause you can't really afford to PAY another pair of hands. But if NOT... we DO have an extra room.. Dinner's at 4:45.

 

[vp999]

I think its fair because Bjorn listed all the requirements up front, its up the the person to chose to accept it or not. Look at where Bjorn and Ryan in the bonsai world today, I am sure they went through similar if not worse apprenticeship in Japan. There's a big pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

 

[Nybonsai12]

I imagine Bjorns requirements are similar to what he went through as an unpaid apprentice for what, 5-7 years at Eisei-en. I think I recall he even stayed on an additional year as a thank you after he was technically finished, but I could be wrong.

With that in mind, he is of course going to have high expectations for someone who is his apprentice. I agree the requirements will turn off 95% of people who thought they were interested in something like this, but apprenticeships were never meant to be for everyone. I’m sure someone will want to do it. Whether they last is an entirely different story.

i like Bjorn, love his work, have taken workshops with him and think he is a good guy. Hope things work out for his business.

 

[Nybonsai12]

a big pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

doubtful. I don’t think anybody in bonsai in the US at least is making huge sums of money.

 

[Hartinez]

I guess to me, the funniest part to this whole thread and the surprise from some, of wether someone would do, or even want to do this, is the fact that he already has someone. In place. Who is filling. AND meeting these exact requirements. Willingly and happily, it seems. Maybe his current apprentice is the only one who doesn’t think it’s a crazy offer. I for one, don’t think that he is. I wouldn’t, nor could I even do it if I did want to at this point. But I guarantee their are plenty who do.