Bjorn Apprenticeship
- Thread starter Ohmy222
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Canada Bonsai
Chumono
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How much do universities pay you to get a bachelor's degree with them? My degree in Classics and Linguistics normally costs 50k out of pocket over 4 years besides housing and food (in Canada, in the USA it would be much more), and I would argue that upon completion the potential to build a career in either field is similar.
The required effort and sacrifies during the education process are also similar.
TN_Jim
Omono
It is very common to take internships in the field of biology in North America following graduation etc. I know so many who have done this. It is the norm, not the exception. Unpaid internships are not some feudalistic Asian practice that have no place in western society.
@Canada Bonsai is exactly right, it is free education and experience that can serve as a springboard for your career.
The notion that Bjorn is grifting people or being unethical is absurd.
@Canada Bonsai is exactly right, it is free education and experience that can serve as a springboard for your career.
The notion that Bjorn is grifting people or being unethical is absurd.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Your fact sheet is specifically for internships. Regardless, if you have someone working for you, and they are providing you with an economic benefit, you need to be extremely careful. There are tons of examples of professional internship programs that have run afoul of the law - from some big name companies that should have known better.
Also... people are talking about specifics of the internship and I don't see them. Did Bjorn take the description down?
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Colorado
Masterpiece
I don’t think it sounds unreasonable at all. Hell, sounds like a walk in the park compared to some jobs.
If he were based in Colorado I’d be tempted to quit my job and give it a shot
If he were based in Colorado I’d be tempted to quit my job and give it a shot
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Although this is a paid internship (through a NBF funding stipend), it has similar job descriptions (although not as detailed as Bjorn's) of tough working conditions and menial labor...No transportation or food and lodging included in this one either.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
It's pretty clear what the duties are and what is what. I would have a very hard time sympathizing with someone who took this on then began whining about it...I also find it extremely hard believe it is some kind of illegal scheme to get free labor. It is what it is. You know going in what's expected and what you will get out of it. Three months unpaid trial period full of hard work, followed by paid job (low pay, but paid) And yeah, my link was to unpaid internships,which is what the initial payless period here is...
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HankDio
Yamadori
If this were presented to me even, say, four years ago I would have hopped on it. It would have beat the hell out of unloading UPS trucks for menial pay, long hours, and a complete lack of fulfillment.
Nowadays I have too much going on, but this is a great opportunity for the right person out there with the desire to be an elite bonsai practitioner.
Nowadays I have too much going on, but this is a great opportunity for the right person out there with the desire to be an elite bonsai practitioner.
Oerc201
Mame
If i was younger i would have applied without even reading the requirements because at that point who cares. Definitely, I don’t think this is aimed at someone with responsibilities like a family. The only issue i see is that you are required to be self taught. I doubt that they learned everything in Japan by being self taught . Someone mentioned universities. If Harvard said guys come and spend your money for 4 years and be self taught. i doubt they would get a lot of students to go there. So i would not compare it to school. I am hoping that it is just what they say to weed people out but even Ryan teaches Josh a lot of things but that is just my opinion on it. I think it is a great opportunity for someone young with a bonsai business in mind for a career not as hobbies .
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Tell it to the Department of Justice, LOL. We're talking US labor law here, not peoples' opinions. What works in Japan may not work here in the US. My advice about being careful still stands - not as a negative but a positive. I don't want any bonsai group to structure a program in such a way that someone can come back and sue you three years after the fact because you ran afoul of the law. The fines can be quite punitive.
HankDio
Yamadori
It's a known quantity that the Japanese apprentice system is all about "show, don't tell". This is how Bjorn and Ryan learned in Japan, and based on the description they plan on teaching the same way Kimura and other Japanese master have taught. I would even argue it is the most intensive, and therefore most efficient and best way to teach practically anything.
"Schooling" is such a general term, as well. You can't just school someone in becoming an electrical engineer, or an automotive mechanic. I studied Spanish language for 8 years, but I really only learned its proper application in my 9th when I spent some time down in Mexico immersing myself in the language. At some point you need hands-on experience. This is not replaced by book learning and lecture. Without talking down, this is a position for self-starters. If you don't expect to take upon yourself the onus of seeking knowledge, then you immediately do not fit the description. Bjorn, and nobody for that matter, is going to hold your hand.
HankDio
Yamadori
As previously mentioned, the United States has no shortage of unpaid internships. This applies to practically every high-skill industry. As was already said, YOU pay for the privilege of learning those skills on the job.
Oerc201
Mame
I will just quote the big guy “What works in Japan may not work here in the US”. It may the best way to learn I just don’t know that it may be worth it for someone in their mid years as opposed to a younger or older person. It definitely needs a self starter tho
HankDio
Yamadori
Aside from being able-bodied and where you are in life, I don't think age has much to do with it. If one feels that this isn't the best use of their time, the position wasn't intended for you. Simple-as.I will just quote the big guy “What works in Japan may not work here in the US”. It may the best way to learn I just don’t know that it may be worth it for someone in their mid years as opposed to a younger or older person. It definitely needs a self starter tho
Ironically, I am the eternal cynic, so usually I would be right with you guys. But this isn't about labor pursuits, or about making a ton of money. It's about creating art, maintaining culture, and passing on intangible heritage.
Oerc201
Mame
I think what he wanted to say was that it has to be run a certain way. I think every high-skill industry has lawyers and bylaws and all that. They are guided by them. Therefore if anyone sues them they might be ok. So i think his point is that he hopes that Bjorn’s is run the same way just in case that the wrong person is chosen and ends up making a stink about it.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Oh good lord...the only thing different from the OTHER bonsai apprenticeship programs I've listed is that Bjorn is more explicit about the duties involved. The "this isnt' Japan" argument is a straw man. OF COURSE it's not Japan. I'd be very surprised if Bjorn hasn't run this by a lawyer or two...
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
So many labor attorneys on this site. Who would have known?
HankDio
Yamadori
Make sure to include yourself in the count, you who is so wise in the art of google-fu.
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Thanks for that link, I had no idea the FLSA decided that interns for "for profit" organizations could be categorized as "may be not "employees"". Which in my mind is ridiculous. Also, that "test" leaves a lot of open ground for the FLSA to change their decision if they conduct an analysis and feel like the intern is an actual employee.Uh, If you volunteer for an unpaid position and know the conditions going in, it doesn't violate anything. There are literally THOUSANDS of unpaid internships for many organizations, do a search on Indeed...
There is a Dept. of Labor measurement for unpaid internships. I'd say This position arguably meets the criteria--
and FWIW, this has nothing to do with Yakuza and organized crime...It's a bonsai apprenticeship.
I don't know, I guess that a 20 yr old that their family can support while doing this would be fine, but the responsibility that is requested by Bjorn is not aimed at 20 yr old's, at least not from this generation (yes, there are a few exceptions). I guess he will need an apprentice that is retired or have money and no obligations, or someone that, as I said before can be supported by his/her family while they do this apprenticeship.
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Not me, but my father was one, and a referee between government-union litigations. So unfortunately I had an earful of that stuff
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