American Bonsai Society Announcement

[Anthony]

So all of the above could be Internet Storm in a teacup Sifu.
Thanks for the clarification.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Vance Wood]

I heard about this yesterday and thought about starting a thread, so thanks for doing so. Despicable acts by a number of individuals in Florida, though one in particular has been implicated as the ring leader. Apparently Juan isn't the first bonsai professional that has been targeted by this group, though the attacks on him were different and involved his not being an American citizen...and ultimately resulted in his leaving the country. I don't know all the details but I know there is an investigation ongoing and several individuals has been asked to resign from positions in the ABS. Apparently they have refused to do so.

Hopefully all the names come out. One of them is a well known blogger.

Come on guys; if there is someone out there who is doing this kind of thing maybe a name or two can force these people to come out of the dark and explane and or defend their points of view. There seems to be no problem throwing around Juan's name?????

 

[Anthony]

So are we looking at a disagreement between -

a sub-tropical zone [ Florida ] and a colder zone 7 [ Japan [?

grow and clip versus wiring ?

The we can teach our own folk and don't need outside teachers.

Jobs are limited - stay away,

As far as I know Costa Rica has a few bonsai clubs and there is
employment for a few teachers.
Trinidad can handle around 5 [ 30 x 50 miles ] maybe 6.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

Did anyone ask if the chap from Costa Rica, was an American
resident or citizen ?
If he was either of the two, why would talk bother him so much
as to leave the area ?
Should not his abilities speak for him ?

None of this makes sense.
Good Day
Anthony

* Strange Seth, was never rude or unfriendly to me?

Juan is very talented.

I can only presume that his talent and abilities were attracting clients away from other bonsai artists with lesser skills.

Unable to compete with Juan’s bonsai ability, they apparantly turned to character assassination to attempt to damage Juan’s reputation and ability to earn a living within the bonsai community in Florida.

The strategy apparently worked. At least temporarily. I have no idea if it affected Juan’s business, but it certainly took a toll on him emotionally. Anyone who knows Juan knows of his gentle caring nature, and I am sure that having to constantly defend himself against persistent attacks wore on him. After all, everyone wants to feel wanted!

However, it seems that the tables have turned.

Karma, as they say, is a bitch!

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,

from the other side .

Working permit first.

We are having a similar problem with Venezuelans.

As small as we are , and suffering from low oil prices/
Trinidad produces 1/2 a % [ laugh here ] of the world's
oil, but as a favour sits in the Opec group.

Venezuelans sneaking in by the 100's, and are highly visible
through speech and mix of races.
Look nothing like our English/French/other mixes.

So all this may be to hide ------- the lack of proper visa.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

So all of the above could be Internet Storm in a teacup Sifu.
Thanks for the clarification.
Good Day
Anthony

Except I know the people involved.

It’s a storm, for sure.

The backlash is pretty severe.

Our local club has had Juan as a guest artist several times. He is greatly admired and loved.

The other guy? He may have ruined his own business. Time will tell.

 

[Anthony]

Yes, Sifu,

but --------- the work permit ------ is more important
than the juicy gossip.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[music~maker]

Wait when did that happen, it becoming "undisputed fact"? Juan's facebook post did not say that, the 'society' reps did - who's corroborated this? I've gotta say that w/ all that's happening, Juan's silence on the matter is deafening.

Sorry, maybe undisputed was a bit strong. All I meant was that he was here and that he left. That actually is undisputed. And that there is a claim that whatever happened caused him to leave. That there is such a claim is also undisputed.

Now, whether that claim was made by Juan himself or by somebody else has been a point of discussion, and nobody has publicly said anything yet to clarify.

Given how serious this is, and given that multiple people's reputations are on the line, I hope that the people who claim to have direct evidence opt for more transparency, not less. Privately judging people who have no ability to address claims being made seems both unfair, and likely to perpetuate the rift in the community that this whole situation has caused.

I continue to withhold judgement until I see hard evidence, publicly presented, and until all those involved get a chance to say their peace after it has been presented. And for those who actually want to remain objective about this, I would encourage you to do the same. Mob justice is not justice, no matter how righteous it may feel in the moment.

Evidence out of context, no matter how damning it may appear, is just that. Out of context. In the US, the court system is set up so that people can face their accusers, and address complaints publicly for a reason. We also have the concepts of innocent until proven guilty and letting the punishment fit the crime, and an age-old idea of redemption and atonement for sins.

I get that people may not want to litigate this in the court of public opinion, I really do. But if the details all stay private, there's no way for those being asked to punish to know if what they've done is just, and no opportunity for the accused to ever be redeemed. I know that I'm putting my own reputation on the line by saying this, and also potentially risking friendships, but as one of the people being asked to punish, I actually have a pretty big problem with that.

And like I've said many times now, I am in no way defending any bad behavior, simply the right to due process.

This is an inflection point for us as a community. Do we slap a bandage over this, move along as if nothing happened, and continue to let it fester, or get everything out in the open and let sunshine be the best disinfectant?

Not my call, since I wasn't involved and I don't yet have all the facts. But you can probably guess which path I'd recommend.

Cheers everyone.

 

[michaelj]

As much as I tried to understand and believe Seth's assertions, Adam did not call a specific person a Nazi. In a long conversation I had with Seth, he had nothing to prove that Adam called Kaya a Nazi. He had nothing to show that Adam has ever used the word Nazi to describe anyone in the world of bonsai.

Adam's exact words are: "When I posted it on those social media sites, it was like the bonsai people turned into bonsai styling fascists."
https://adamaskwhy.com/2017/04/06/some-recent-projects/

The accusation made it sound like Adam was calling him a Nazi in the political or ethnic sense, which offended me. Then I read the actual comment, and I think Seth's outrage is manufactured. Calling someone a "bonsai styling fascist" is not the same. And, frankly, calling someone a Nazi can sometimes be funny. When I got a letter from my HOA about how I left the pile of soil ingredients on the driveway for too long, I called them "association nazis" to my close friends and family. BFD.

It makes me wonder what actually was said, and in what context, about Juan. I'm assuming it had to have been worse than "bonsai styling fascist", but I can't find anything about the actual comments.

 

[coh]

Come on guys; if there is someone out there who is doing this kind of thing maybe a name or two can force these people to come out of the dark and explane and or defend their points of view. There seems to be no problem throwing around Juan's name?????

Vance, one of the accused has been mentioned by name several times in this thread, Adam Lavigne. He has resigned from his board position in ABS. Others have been implicated to varying degrees, but I don't really have a good grasp of who they are so I won't mention them.

 

[Vance Wood]

Except I know the people involved.

It’s a storm, for sure.

The backlash is pretty severe.

Our local club has had Juan as a guest artist several times. He is greatly admired and loved.

The other guy? He may have ruined his own business. Time will tell.

You know as well as I do, having been around here probably as long as I have; as recently as a two years ago the art of personal character assassination was a well practiced tactic on this site and others often spilling from one site to another. It seems to be in the nature of some people to go there when they cannot get it over on someone else. That't what happened to He who shall not be named.

 

[BillsBayou]

The accusation made it sound like Adam was calling him a Nazi in the political or ethnic sense, which offended me. Then I read the actual comment, and I think Seth's outrage is manufactured. Calling someone a "bonsai styling fascist" is not the same. And, frankly, calling someone a Nazi can sometimes be funny. When I got a letter from my HOA about how I left the pile of soil ingredients on the driveway for too long, I called them "association nazis" to my close friends and family. BFD.

It makes me wonder what actually was said, and in what context, about Juan. I'm assuming it had to have been worse than "bonsai styling fascist", but I can't find anything about the actual comments.

I don't think that Seth's outrage is manufactured. He's got rage and it shows. It's his "evidence" that is manufactured.

Seth deleted his entire thread. Alas, Facebook still has a copy of it (as do I) should anyone of a litigious nature wish to file a request. I think this will end up in court.

I wonder if we'll be hearing phrases (from many people on both sides) saying "The lawyer wouldn't let me testify", "I was never called to testify", "The judge ordered the jury to ignore my entire testimony", "They rejected all of my evidence", and finally "The whole thing was corrupt."

 

[Adair M]

Yes, Sifu,

but --------- the work permit ------ is more important
than the juicy gossip.
Good Day
Anthony

Well, yes and no. All I know is that Juan was here on a temporary Visa. It’s none of my business to know what kind of visa he had. He did tell me that he was trying to get a permanent visa.

If Juan’s visa allowed him to work, the slander stating that he was illegal is just that. Slander.

If his visa did not allow him to work, then yes Juan may have been doing illegal things by working. He was in the US legally. Whether his visa permitted him to work is unknown to me.

There may be more things going on, I don’t know.

Regardless, it’s an ugly situation.

 

[Vance Wood]

Well, yes and no. All I know is that Juan was here on a temporary Visa. It’s none of my business to know what kind of visa he had. He did tell me that he was trying to get a permanent visa.

If Juan’s visa allowed him to work, the slander stating that he was illegal is just that. Slander.

If his visa did not allow him to work, then yes Juan may have been doing illegal things by working. He was in the US legally. Whether his visa permitted him to work is unknown to me.

There may be more things going on, I don’t know.

Regardless, it’s an ugly situation.

near as I can tell unnecessarily ugly.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Seth deleted his entire thread.

I wonder if we'll be hearing phrases (from many people on both sides) saying "The lawyer wouldn't let me testify", "I was never called to testify", "The judge ordered the jury to ignore my entire testimony", "They rejected all of my evidence", and finally "The whole thing was corrupt."

He hasn't deleted it.
It is still there on his own page.

 

[BillsBayou]

near as I can tell unnecessarily ugly.

"Unnecessarily ugly" Could you imagine being at a bonsai convention during a critique and hearing the judge call your tree unnecessarily ugly? Like, not only does this tree look like shit, it appears the artist went out of his way to make it look like shit.

I know of one person in my club to whom I'm going to give that exact review. He and I are like two cats in a brown paper bag. But in a nice way.

Worse yet... (at this point my mind is running on too much caffiene) I work for a university. Plenty of Greek sororities. Many of which have their sorority names on their shirts. "Your name is going to be 'Blue Magoo', and you are 'Latte Yaya', and your name is 'Unnecessarily Ugly'. Welcome sisters! One and ALL!"

 

[Cadillactaste]

Personally...I do hope an attorney is involved. I feel two innocent parties are casualties of a vendetta of one's sad vindictiveness. I hope that a court of law sees through all this...and names can be cleared of the shadows befallen them.

I have seen jealousy, turn to hatred and wishing to destroy Adam earlier. I have heard some inside truths of ugly rumors of Adam that is untrue not relating to Juan. That cleared his name on accounts going around on another level of lies to destroy him. That said...that hear in makes me question the facts on his being involved in this Juan situation. I won't say more...but will wait for it all to come out by those who were there in this other circumstance...and lies are caught like flies in a fly trap.

 

[BillsBayou]

He hasn't deleted it.
It is still there on his own page.

HAHAHAHA!!!! He blocked me. Score one for me.

HEY SETH! (because someone will tell him this)
It's always easy to make toxic soup when TRUTH isn't one of your ingredients. I've been keeping my mind open this whole time. That doesn't mean I don't call out the falsehoods when I find them. Your entire post is nothing but innuendo, hearsay, and one giant lie sticking out right there in the middle. I've seen people call Adam toxic. Yet you're the only one being toxic.

TO EVERYONE AT LARGE including everyone who replied favorably to Seth's post:
I'm no Adam fanboy. I've said it directly to him. I happen to like him better than some of my blood relatives, but he and I aren't BFFs. From what I know of Adam through personal experience, I would enjoy drinking with him, doing bonsai with him, and would invite him over for my incredible homemade pizza. That said, if I find EVIDENCE that he is a person of low moral standing, I will feel betrayed because that's not the Adam I know. Sure, he's brash and likes to write with artistic license to increase the drama in his posts. So what? If I commented on his photo "Reduce that to two or you'll get a bulge" and he replied with a blog post which reads "I posted this tree to the web and it turns out Bill is a bonsai styling fascist who can't get his head out of his ass." I would be LAUGHING MY ASS OFF (first, I'd have to pull out my head). Why not? It's funny and he's making drama where none exists. He has a way with words. If Seth wants to post something negative about me, I support it. Hell, I'd call it a victory if he did. My reply will always be to point at Seth's post and say "This is the full measure of Seth. Judge for yourself the character of someone who doesn't like me." When the people that don't like me are openly insulting me, I'm flattered. I won't become a better man if everyone likes me.

I'm not done with the Juan Incident. But I want FACTS people. Not character assassinations. Everybody is up for nomination to my "Naughty" list. Me saying that I want to stay neutral does not mean I won't call out lies, half-truths, innuendo, or hate-fueled interpretations. Right now, the Anti-Adam side isn't looking good. I've read Seth's post and all the rah-rahs replies. I've read Adam's post-Juan posts and I've heard rumors that there just might be fire where there's smoke. I don't have skin in the game, the score can change. Very quickly. I just happen to be someone who looks at information logically and at face value. My opinions are not ruled by emotion. My actions are, but not my decisions.

Life Pro Tip: If someone wants to change your mind on a topic, or develop an opinion on one, and you find yourself responding with emotion rather than logic, don't trust that person. They do not have your best interest at heart.

 

[Dav4]

HAHAHAHA!!!! He blocked me. Score one for me.

HEY SETH! (because someone will tell him this)
It's always easy to make toxic soup when TRUTH isn't one of your ingredients. I've been keeping my mind open this whole time. That doesn't mean I don't call out the falsehoods when I find them. Your entire post is nothing but innuendo, hearsay, and one giant lie sticking out right there in the middle. I've seen people call Adam toxic. Yet you're the only one being toxic.

TO EVERYONE AT LARGE including everyone who replied favorably to Seth's post:
I'm no Adam fanboy. I've said it directly to him. I happen to like him better than some of my blood relatives, but he and I aren't BFFs. From what I know of Adam through personal experience, I would enjoy drinking with him, doing bonsai with him, and would invite him over for my incredible homemade pizza. That said, if I find EVIDENCE that he is a person of low moral standing, I will feel betrayed because that's not the Adam I know. Sure, he's brash and likes to write with artistic license to increase the drama in his posts. So what? If I commented on his photo "Reduce that to two or you'll get a bulge" and he replied with a blog post which reads "I posted this tree to the web and it turns out Bill is a bonsai styling fascist who can't get his head out of his ass." I would be LAUGHING MY ASS OFF (first, I'd have to pull out my head). Why not? It's funny and he's making drama where none exists. He has a way with words. If Seth wants to post something negative about me, I support it. Hell, I'd call it a victory if he did. My reply will always be to point at Seth's post and say "This is the full measure of Seth. Judge for yourself the character of someone who doesn't like me." When the people that don't like me are openly insulting me, I'm flattered. I won't become a better man if everyone likes me.

I'm not done with the Juan Incident. But I want FACTS people. Not character assassinations. Everybody is up for nomination to my "Naughty" list. Me saying that I want to stay neutral does not mean I won't call out lies, half-truths, innuendo, or hate-fueled interpretations. Right now, the Anti-Adam side isn't looking good. I've read Seth's post and all the rah-rahs replies. I've read Adam's post-Juan posts and I've heard rumors that there just might be fire where there's smoke. I don't have skin in the game, the score can change. Very quickly. I just happen to be someone who looks at information logically and at face value. My opinions are not ruled by emotion. My actions are, but not my decisions.

Life Pro Tip: If someone wants to change your mind on a topic, or develop an opinion on one, and you find yourself responding with emotion rather than logic, don't trust that person. They do not have your best interest at heart.

I completely agree with everything you say here. I have no skin in the game here, either, other then being a huge fan of Juan's. With that said, there really hasn't been much truly irrefutably damning facts to come out since everything hit the fan earlier this week. At first, I was shocked and angered by the alleged ill will and slanderous talk that seemingly drove Juan out. Now, I am beginning to wonder if the bonsai community at large is being played at the expense of both Juan and Adam.... crazy and sad to think so, but until more solid evidence is made public to clear matters up, I'll continue to wonder.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

I've remained quiet on this issue just because it's so unsettling. A man's reputation and livelihood is at stake and the facts aren't concrete. I met Adam a year or two ago when the NoVA club had him around for a workshop. He's got a unique sense of humor, and one that could offend you if you didn't know he was joking around.

He's a good guy from what I've gathered and this whole situation doesn't sound like him. I won't comment on what Seth has said, aside from the fact that Seth hasn't been a big fan of Adam since I started talking to him back in 2015.