American Bonsai Society Announcement

[coh]

someone edited out the message but left the name...

 

[rockm]

I've been unexpectedly drawn into a drama that I had nothing to do with, but as one of the reddit mods, I feel I now need to make a statement on this.

I became aware of Juan's situation last night via unsubstantiated 2nd and 3rd hand information. It came from people I trust, but still, I have no direct evidence of any specific individuals committing any specific action. Not saying it didn't happen, and not saying that it's not horrible if it did, just that I don't yet have enough information.

I counseled my fellow mod to take a deep breath and wait for all the facts to come out before posting this, and when I woke up, the post had already gone live. I know he meant well, and sometimes emotions get the best of us.

If the accusations are true, they are truly horrible and should be condemned. So let's get that out of the way. I, and all of the mods of the /r/bonsai sub, feel that there is no place for racism and xenophobia in the bonsai community whatsoever.

But all that said, Internet mob justice has often been wrong, and as a general rule, leaping to judgement based on 2nd and 3rd hand information is a terrible practice in my not so humble opinion. I strongly believe in due process, and also in allowing those accused to have a voice in defending accusations made against them.

I have locked and removed the thread in question, posted another that states essentially this, and like the rest of you, am now waiting to see how this all plays out.

I would encourage those in this thread who linked to that post to delete your comments here if you still can, and for everyone to hold off on naming names until such time as we know all the facts or have official statements from those involved.

Thanks,
~MM

I applaud the approach. It is really really easy to jump to the end here. Righteous rage is good, but when it comes to someone's livelihood (both individuals involved) jumping to conclusions can ruin businesses. Wait until the dust settles before jumping to name names.

 

[SU2]

I applaud the approach. It is really really easy to jump to the end here. Righteous rage is good, but when it comes to someone's livelihood (both individuals involved) jumping to conclusions can ruin businesses. Wait until the dust settles before jumping to name names.

Very very well-put! I reported my post as well as pm'ing Anthony and Bonsai Nut so they can edit it/delete it, g'damnit I was posting to try and get things to light because I know the evidence won't corroborate what was being alleged, then it's redaction time and I can't edit my post here!

[though once the name's edited, I'm still of the mindset that, since it *was* posted and enough people are now aware, that those accused should put in their 2 cents - the accusation is vague but strong, if such bad harassment was occurring you'd think someone would call it out when it happened, at least if they're the type that'd call it out later on - it's pretty weak to level these charges w/o any specifics IMO.]

 

[cheap_walmart_art]

I've been unexpectedly drawn into a drama that I had nothing to do with, but as one of the reddit mods, I feel I now need to make a statement on this.

I became aware of Juan's situation last night via unsubstantiated 2nd and 3rd hand information. It came from people I trust, but still, I have no direct evidence of any specific individuals committing any specific action. Not saying it didn't happen, and not saying that it's not horrible if it did, just that I don't yet have enough information.

I counseled my fellow mod to take a deep breath and wait for all the facts to come out before posting this, and when I woke up, the post had already gone live. I know he meant well, and sometimes emotions get the best of us.

If the accusations are true, they are truly horrible and should be condemned. So let's get that out of the way. I, and all of the mods of the /r/bonsai sub, feel that there is no place for racism and xenophobia in the bonsai community whatsoever.

But all that said, Internet mob justice has often been wrong, and as a general rule, leaping to judgement based on 2nd and 3rd hand information is a terrible practice in my not so humble opinion. I strongly believe in due process, and also in allowing those accused to have a voice in defending accusations made against them.

I have locked and removed the thread in question, posted another that states essentially this, and like the rest of you, am now waiting to see how this all plays out.

I would encourage those in this thread who linked to that post to delete your comments here if you still can, and for everyone to hold off on naming names until such time as we know all the facts or have official statements from those involved.

Thanks,
~MM[/QUOTE

I've been unexpectedly drawn into a drama that I had nothing to do with, but as one of the reddit mods, I feel I now need to make a statement on this.

I became aware of Juan's situation last night via unsubstantiated 2nd and 3rd hand information. It came from people I trust, but still, I have no direct evidence of any specific individuals committing any specific action. Not saying it didn't happen, and not saying that it's not horrible if it did, just that I don't yet have enough information.

I counseled my fellow mod to take a deep breath and wait for all the facts to come out before posting this, and when I woke up, the post had already gone live. I know he meant well, and sometimes emotions get the best of us.

If the accusations are true, they are truly horrible and should be condemned. So let's get that out of the way. I, and all of the mods of the /r/bonsai sub, feel that there is no place for racism and xenophobia in the bonsai community whatsoever.

But all that said, Internet mob justice has often been wrong, and as a general rule, leaping to judgement based on 2nd and 3rd hand information is a terrible practice in my not so humble opinion. I strongly believe in due process, and also in allowing those accused to have a voice in defending accusations made against them.

I have locked and removed the thread in question, posted another that states essentially this, and like the rest of you, am now waiting to see how this all plays out.

I would encourage those in this thread who linked to that post to delete your comments here if you still can, and for everyone to hold off on naming names until such time as we know all the facts or have official statements from those involved.

Thanks,
~MM

I've always liked your advice and point of view on /r Bonsai. I'm glad you are wanting to wait for all of the details surrounding this bad situation before dispensing internet justice.

 

[music~maker]

If anyone w/ the power thinks it should be removed, I've got no problem with it (I can't edit after 20min) - were you worried about names or just about that post seeing daylight before it got removed? If the former, I disagree I think he needs to get in front of this and defend himself, these are serious charges that are being leveled w/o any specifics, on reddit he was accused and not given a chance to respond I thought the best thing to do is to simply get things in the open and set the record straight (the reddit thread turned into a circus where people were already past the idea of innocent/guilty and talking about how racism can't be tolerated etc etc, culpability has not been established anywhere yet the mood of lots of posts is already that something happened despite zero evidence of that....I know you're a vet, do you happen to have any personal knowledge of this situation? I'd be fine w/ this remaining a private matter but juan and the bonsai society made it public, am hoping to hear a refutation from the person I know who was accused..)

I was simply trying to mitigate somebody getting thrown under the bus without any sort of due process and without any chance of a rebuttal. I'm not against naming and shaming per se, but I am very much against taking actions to punish people without first knowing all the facts. And to be very clear, I think the only folks who truly know all the facts right now are those most directly involved. Naming names just seemed very premature to me.

And yes, the thread was starting to go sideways quickly, and there'd probably be hundreds of comments in there by now if I hadn't quashed it.

 

[GGB]

Bummer, i always kind of assume bonsai folk are open minded and welcoming, despite differences in political opinion. and Rockm is 110% right, let's wait to get the facts before we start flipping cars over

 

[amcoffeegirl]

What could he possibly say against the mob?
I am crushed about the entire thing.
Florida bonsai is the folks I aspire to be like.
Tropicals are my passion.
I cannot join the arena and pass judgement.
I just can't.
I am sad for Juan and Bea. I know Juan has a beautiful future ahead of him.
My entire heart is broken.
I left all the FB groups.

 

[10-brink]

Adam Lavigne's post on the situation:


I think it’s time for me to break my silence.
There have been some very defaming things said in the last several days about a situation in Florida concerning Juan Andrade and him having to leave the USA to go back to Costa Rica.
I can only repeat what I have read and what others have shared with me because no one making these accusations has made them to me. Mostly it’s been shared in closed groups and private messages. I have no direct accusations or evidence from anyone.
The accusation is that I spread rumors that Juan was in this country illegally and no one should hire him.
I did not do this.
I don’t talk politics, so many people don’t know where I stand on certain issues, but I think this is important.
I am a libertarian.
One of my core beliefs, one I’ve held since high school when I became a libertarian, is the belief that people should be able to move freely to find freedom and work, regardless of borders.
I have many friends that don’t believe this, I have some that do.
I don’t think any have the belief to the degree I do.
Libertarians believe that all people are free and deserve the right to exercise this freedom no matter their origin or country. I do not think we should have limits, barriers, tests (whether economic or ideological), for immigration into the USA. This is what I believe, in freedom.
For people to make the unfounded accusation that I said Juan was here illegally, or without legal status, sickens me. Because of this accusation, I have been called a racist, a bigot, a nazi, a fascist, a Trumper, jealous, talentless, ignorant, classless.
The level of hate that these accusations have created is staggering to me.
Bonsai is not about this.
To some, bonsai is a hobby.
To some it’s a passion.
To some it’s a vocation.
To me it’s an avocation.
I am an artist.
Ever since I can remember, I’ve doodled, drawn, painted, sculpted, written poetry, written songs.
I believe that bonsai is the ultimate art. It is never done, the creative act is always continuing, not like a painting that’s done, or a story that’s printed, but it’s a living, breathing act of bringing form from chaos. Not subjugating nature, but collaborating with it. Becoming a partner with the medium, letting it tell you what should come next; it’s limited but limitless. You can only do to a tree what it will let you.
In the last few years, I have had a tough life.
My family betrayed me, in a family business I had been in for 15 years.
My body betrayed me. I almost died, and have lived with an ileostomy because of it for almost four years.
Now, it seems that bonsai is betraying me.
With all that has been said, not only by those who hate me or have hidden agendas, but by men who have called me brother, and women who’ve embraced me as a son, I don’t know that I can recover.
I cannot believe that this has been allowed come to this, on unfounded, defamatory, evidence.
Thank you to those standing by me. Those who have been dirtied by their closeness to me, by their support. I wish I could take all the abuse you are receiving because of your defense of me. You do not deserve it.
I would like to apologize to Juan, for any misunderstandings he and I may have had. I take full responsibility for the breakdown in communications that led to this. I pride myself on my communication skills but I couldn’t fix our relationship.
I would like to apologize to the Florida and American bonsai community for the heartache and division this has caused. I am willing to take responsibility for this, because it was me that was the target, and I am willing to forgive those defaming me.
Let’s try to heal this rift that has opened

https://www.facebook.com/adamsartandbonsai/posts/1862383327118192

 

[milehigh_7]

I've been unexpectedly drawn into a drama that I had nothing to do with, but as one of the reddit mods, I feel I now need to make a statement on this.

I became aware of Juan's situation last night via unsubstantiated 2nd and 3rd hand information. It came from people I trust, but still, I have no direct evidence of any specific individuals committing any specific action. Not saying it didn't happen, and not saying that it's not horrible if it did, just that I don't yet have enough information.

I counseled my fellow mod to take a deep breath and wait for all the facts to come out before posting this, and when I woke up, the post had already gone live. I know he meant well, and sometimes emotions get the best of us.

If the accusations are true, they are truly horrible and should be condemned. So let's get that out of the way. I, and all of the mods of the /r/bonsai sub, feel that there is no place for racism and xenophobia in the bonsai community whatsoever.

But all that said, Internet mob justice has often been wrong, and as a general rule, leaping to judgement based on 2nd and 3rd hand information is a terrible practice in my not so humble opinion. I strongly believe in due process, and also in allowing those accused to have a voice in defending accusations made against them.

I have locked and removed the thread in question, posted another that states essentially this, and like the rest of you, am now waiting to see how this all plays out.

I would encourage those in this thread who linked to that post to delete your comments here if you still can, and for everyone to hold off on naming names until such time as we know all the facts or have official statements from those involved.

Thanks,
~MM

100% in agreement. I tried to say as much yesterday and they got the pitchforks out for me. LOL Soooo, I am keeping as far away from it as I can until the dust settles. One thing is certain, there is a huge wound in our bonsai community. Let us do our best to not make this sad situation worse.

 

[AlainK]

I've just removed the "Like" I put to one message because this whole affair seems much more complicated than I had thought after reading the first messages in this thread.

Whatever the facts are, this story is very sad because it shows how the tensions in the US politics are spilling out even in activities such a bonsai, and that's a pity.

Let's hope things settles down quickly, and the whole things serves as a lesson for everyone.

 

[sorce]

From My Boy Seth Nelson.....

I have been quiet on the matter of Adam Lavigne being accused of slandering Juan Andrade and the many others who are now speaking out. I know that my name has a certain stigma about it, so I did not want to get involved because I did not want my name to effect the integrity of the allegations. After reading the statement from American Bonsai Society, I’m tired of seeing members of Bonsai Societies of Florida try and discredit Juan Andrade to protect Adam Lavigne. The current BSF board is actively ignoring Louise Leister, dismissing everything presented as hearsay and has yet to even make a statement or apology because many of the board know they were aware of what was happening and chose to ignore it. This comes as no surprise to me, and this is just another reminder as to why I stepped out of the Florida bonsai community.

Many people know that I was good friends to Adam for a long time, and now I do not associate with him. That’s the most polite way to say it. Most people know that when he was sick, literally on the verge of death, there was a fundraiser for him to help the Lavigne family with medical costs. Many donated from across the US and did the right thing in charity, even those Adam had already slandered for years. I was 22, working at Pizza Hut at the time and even I scraped up $100 to donate. Unlike many other people, I went to visit him in the hospital room twice. Adam was someone I looked up to, respected, admired and valued from the point I found his blog at 19yro. I know to this day, he still has messages I wrote to him from those days about the way he inspired me. Because at the time, he did.

Being young, and new to bonsai, Adam’s blog happened to be one of the first resources I found, and when I realized he was living in the same state as me, I wanted to befriend someone local that could help me learn. In the beginning, Adam inspired me, and as time went on, I slowly realized how toxic he is as an individual. With a clean conscience I can say, I ruined my own reputation doing Adam’s dirty work because I wanted his approval. I have personally been a part of Adam’s slander campaigns against Louise Leister, Mike Lebanik, Mike Fedducia, even someone as recognized as Suthin Sukosolvisit. I am not using Adam’s name as an excuse to my actions, but being an influential young man; I did those things Adam knew he couldn’t get away with because I simply didn’t know any better. I am saying this with a clear conscience. Adam manipulated me as a friend to troll, shame and discredit many people who I have now come to think highly of contrarily to what Adam told me to believe. Even so, after betraying my trust, I remained friends with him. I am not trying to ask for a pass on my behavior. I have kept moving forward, accepting the consequences of my actions and not looking back.

I stopped playing along with his games, but I still tried to be his friend. The straw that broke the camel’s back was the moment he called Kaya Mooney a nazi in his blog. At the time, Kaya was 19yro. I met Kaya when he was 16yro and we have been good friends since. In the bonsai community, he is one of the youngest people actively seeking professional education. Yet, rather than bolstering Kaya up, Adam calls him a nazi. After I spoke up for Kaya, Adam sent us an apology. Mine came in, just moments prior to Kaya’s. The messages were copy and pasted to both of us and all he did was change our names at the top. The man could not even give a sincere apology. From that moment, the moment I realized he didn’t even send a sincere apology, I have not spoken to him.

Many people find Adam’s writing entertaining, but do not realize, those seemingly sarcastic, generalized statements are about specific individuals. You do not realize how loaded his blog is with direct insults until its written about you. Adam is not a stupid man, he prides himself on his Instagram page as being a cunning linguist with 69 accounts he follows. Adam works with double entendre and other literary devices to hide the attacks he makes on us.

And, I have years of messages I am more than happy to show as evidence to those who need to see it. That being said, I totally denounce Bonsai Societies of Florida in the way they are refusing to handle this situation by actively defending Adam and other’s in close association to, such as Martin Rosen’s, behavior based on an idea that this is all hearsay.

Many people also know that Juan and Beatrice lived with me for somewhere around 1.5yrs. Juan and I have a very close friendship. We spent many nights working on trees into the early AM hours. We also spent many nights discussing the rumors being spread about him, by Adam and his cronies, and always thought it best to ignore and take the high road. Let Adam play his games. I saw the emails, I saw the text messages, the Facebook messages, I heard the stories, I received messages myself, I saw the physical letters, I saw the names. There has not been one thing alleged that cannot be supported. Yet BSF board members are still currently trying to wipe Adam’s wrong doings under the rug.

The reason why none of us in this community has never spoken out about Adam’s slander is that we all know he tries to make a living with his bonsai work. None of us wanted to ruin this person’s livelihood even though he was attempting to ruin ours. The game Adam plays has been going on for years, long before I even knew what bonsai was. I am sorry for Adam, but many of us have helped him repeatedly, only for him to bite us. After being told by close friends that he needs to stop sneak dissing the plethora of people in his blog and in real life, he has openly bragged that the drama is what people like about his blog. It has gone on far too long, and it is about time it’s handled.

Seth Nelson

.........

Maybe you get the right impression of him too!

Sorce

 

[rockm]

I've just removed the "Like" I put to one message because this whole affair seems much more complicated than I had thought after reading the first messages in this thread.

Whatever the facts are, this story is very sad because it shows how the tensions in the US politics are spilling out even in activities such a bonsai, and that's a pity.

Let's hope things settles down quickly, and the whole things serves as a lesson for everyone.

This sounds to me like it ain't about politics...

As I thought it might, this is predictably turning into a "he said" "he said" thing. Those of us looking in with no experience with either will have a hard time seeing through the fog...I hope people in Florida get to the bottom of it.

 

[substratum]

I’m sorry that so many people have apparently/reportedly suffered as a result of this guy’s pattern and practice of behavior. I’m also sorry for him, because he will eventually be utterly alone in this world if all these things are true. I sincerely hope that whatever the case may be, that TRUTH prevails. Maybe these “coming to a head” events will prompt him to seek help (like a counselor or a pastor), leading to a true change.

When I re-kickstarted my interest in bonsai early this year, I had no idea there’d be this kind of drama in the bonsai communities.

 

[Cadillactaste]

People need to let those in Florida sort this out. There is a lot of crap going on behind the scenes that is discusting...and needs sorted out. Character of people desimated...

I do know this...I have seen vendettas in the past that were done to destroy a person's character of innocent people. Until the dust settles...don't take sides.

Screen shots aren't solid...can be placed in a program and edited. Not saying that's the case. But until this is settled...names tossed out is trash talk. Which is wrong.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

That unknown persons should think themselves entitled to comment upon so private a matter as a death and resurrection, that they should vent their curiosity in letters to her daughter was a circumstance to excite Mrs Wintertowne's utmost displeasure; she had a great deal to say in censure of such vulgar, ill-bred beings, and upon his arrival at Brunswick-square Sir Walter was obliged to listen to all of it.
"My advice, ma'am," he said, "is to think no more about it. As we politicians well know a policy of dignity and silence is our best defense against this sort of impertinence."
- Susanna Clarke, Jonathon Strange & Mr. Norrell

Instead of worrying about drama in the bonsai community, perhaps one would be better served by picking up a good book?

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Reputations tarnished, but whoever is with good shall prevail. I'll stay focused on bonsai. I noticed the mess the other day, but not going to pay too much attention any further as it's a big distraction.

 

[Lazylightningny]

I would have to know exactly what was said, and by whom, and under what pretext before I made a decision on this. Too much fake news floating around.

 

[music~maker]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bonsai/comments/8ukco6

 

[music~maker]

Also, I added this note to the open letter as a stickied comment:

Just a little addendum that I didn’t want to get lost in the noise.

Let’s not forget that in all of this, that Juan Andrade, an extremely talented and highly respected member of the bonsai community, did in fact leave the country with his wife because of whatever happened. While I still don’t know exactly what happened yet, that part is an undisputed fact.

I don’t know enough to comment more fully, and I don’t know Juan personally, but if anyone does know Juan, now would be a great time to reach out and find out if there’s anything that we, the global bonsai community, can do to help out him and his wife with his situation.

 

[Lazylightningny]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bonsai/comments/8ukco6

there is nothing here or in the links that states what Levigne said, to whom, and under what circumstances. It's all just broad generalizations. Still looks like fake news to me.