Aluminum vs Copper Price Wise

Bonsai Nut said:
I am looking for the intelligent wire that will automatically wrap itself around a branch, and then on a command, unwrap itself.

It would help if I could control it via Wifi so I didn't have to go outside.
Click to expand...
They have had this in Japan for centuries- "Apprentices"! They even sweep up the studio after they mess it up! :)
 
Andrew Legg said:
I thought America was a tropical island...... Aren't there lotsa old folk in palm tree ridden shirts driving slowly up to Cape Carnaval past brown pelicans. You launch spaceships from America don't you? If you are south of that place called Greenland you must be REALLY green, so I guess loads of tropical rain. Quit whining, give up ya day jobs and melt cans. What's wrong with you people? Where's your commitment. Hell, I live in Africa. It's south of France where fries come from. We are third world here, so unlike you first world folks we don't have the luxury of metal here, so bonsai is REALLY time consuming. A lot of us use clip and grow because standing around for six weeks holding a branch waiting for it to set is a bit inconvenient. I find my fingers go numb after about two weeks. Once a buddy of mine one managed to get some wire from the first world. We managed to wire the tree, and it was going well until he plugged the wire into the mains. We think he must have swapped live with neutral cause the house tripped. It was pretty cool.
Click to expand...

Andrew Legg is now my new best friend!

Sorce
 
@Andrew Legg

I already know you guys use diamonds in your soil!

How bout you send me some blood diamonds, and I'll send you some copper.

Don't worry, I'll sell the diamonds to a feller in a Palm tree ridden shirt
and buy a good bonsai!

Sorce
 
Andrew Legg said:
I thought America was a tropical island...... Aren't there lotsa old folk in palm tree ridden shirts driving slowly up to Cape Carnaval past brown pelicans. You launch spaceships from America don't you? If you are south of that place called Greenland you must be REALLY green, so I guess loads of tropical rain. Quit whining, give up ya day jobs and melt cans. What's wrong with you people? Where's your commitment. Hell, I live in Africa. It's south of France where fries come from. We are third world here, so unlike you first world folks we don't have the luxury of metal here, so bonsai is REALLY time consuming. A lot of us use clip and grow because standing around for six weeks holding a branch waiting for it to set is a bit inconvenient. I find my fingers go numb after about two weeks. Once a buddy of mine one managed to get some wire from the first world. We managed to wire the tree, and it was going well until he plugged the wire into the mains. We think he must have swapped live with neutral cause the house tripped. It was pretty cool.
Click to expand...
This gave me images of Charlie Brown's Christmas tree! Sorry if you third world folks don't get the reference! :)
 
Remember this stranded wire?
index-10.jpeg

Craftsy Antsy, I took it apart, I may wire a juniper this weekend.

I ended up with 18 strands at 40 inches.
Call it 3 ft each. X 18 = 54ft of usable 18 gauge copper.

I find out that a groutline is a great place to straighten wire!
20151114_103149.jpg

20151114_104842.jpg

It'll be annealled on the stove as such.
I like to anneal wire as I go. Its relaxing.
I'm trying to fix up some now though, so I can arrange a bunch of sizes for summers 187 wiring!

How much does 54 ft of 18 gauge copper cost? Time with my kids,
And a few minutes of cooking gas!

Sorce
 
sorce said:
Remember this stranded wire?
View attachment 86557

Craftsy Antsy, I took it apart, I may wire a juniper this weekend.

I ended up with 18 strands at 40 inches.
Call it 3 ft each. X 18 = 54ft of usable 18 gauge copper.

I find out that a groutline is a great place to straighten wire!
View attachment 86558

View attachment 86559

It'll be annealled on the stove as such.
I like to anneal wire as I go. Its relaxing.
I'm trying to fix up some now though, so I can arrange a bunch of sizes for summers 187 wiring!

How much does 54 ft of 18 gauge copper cost? Time with my kids,
And a few minutes of cooking gas!

Sorce
Click to expand...

That is what I do sorce, I was an electrician earlier in my life and have a lot of scap copper. I use the grill to anneal mine.
 
Sorce, when you anneal it, don't have the coils looped around itself. Just make it be a simple coil.

The reason? After its annealed, and it's coiled around itself, you will have to bend it to uncoil it. Every little bend makes it stiffer. Make it so that if you were to try to lift the coil but only hold it by one end, it looks like a slinky.

18 gauge, it's pretty thin, so it's not as critical. 12 gauge, it makes a big difference.

But even 18 gauge... That's wire you're doing detail wiring with. Wire near the ends of the branches. Wire closest to the observer. You want to be very precise with that wire! So you want it soft so you can manipulate it exactly how you want it.
 
Adair M said:
Sorce, when you anneal it, don't have the coils looped around itself. Just make it be a simple coil.

The reason? After its annealed, and it's coiled around itself, you will have to bend it to uncoil it. Every little bend makes it stiffer. Make it so that if you were to try to lift the coil but only hold it by one end, it looks like a slinky.

18 gauge, it's pretty thin, so it's not as critical. 12 gauge, it makes a big difference.

But even 18 gauge... That's wire you're doing detail wiring with. Wire near the ends of the branches. Wire closest to the observer. You want to be very precise with that wire! So you want it soft so you can manipulate it exactly how you want it.
Click to expand...

I have noticed different hardness sections from before.
I try to remember to not settle for ok.

Detail wiring, there's a video I haven't seen! Tips? Lol. Tips!?
Before, I don't think I annealled really thin wire, because it moves so easy already. FOOLISH! I cat wait to use it soft!

I asked the Sorceress if we could get a kiln today!

Sorce
 
I don't know of a video on detail wiring. But the idea is for pines, the last loop of wire comes underneath the base of the needles, and then it turns up, and a little back. Shaped like a fishhook. With no barb. The loop of wire supports the bottom needles, so they don't point down. The fishhook turns the cut end of the wire back towards the trunk. This means the cut end is not facing the viewer. The cut ends can "glisten", and be more apparent. With the fishhook, there's a little loop of wire under the base of the needles, and it's hidden. And finally, when it's time to remove the wire, it's easy to grab the fishhook with the pliers to spin the wire back off.

The unwinding the wire is controversial on this site! Many say you can't do it without harming the tree. (Not true!). But in another thread these same people will say they prefer aluminum to copper because they can reuse the aluminum wire! Hmmm... How can they reuse it if they cut it off on chunks?
 
Adair M said:
mmm... chunks
Click to expand...

Gross. Lol ! Yes.

I mean, unwinding is easier with aluminum ......
But I think there are a lot of factors(experiences) going into why people don't unwind copper. Like bad wire they bought it with, bad wire they put on it, bad technique can't be unwired perfectly safe either! No unwind technique. Etc.

Of work hardened. .......

I was thinking the other day, about how much work hardness goes into applying the wire.
And if by twisting the wire a little more at application, one could cause it to set harder, as for Spruce, and other springy branching.
I assume, with observational experience, that there is a link between, the amount of work, and the amount of hardening.

I want to understand this and utilize it better. Thoughts?

Sorce
 
Sorce,

I also use true [ make ] bronze [ sn/cu ] and at a smaller mm. It stiffens better for smaller projects, but I make it. Both as red and yellow.
Trinidad, unlike the other islands, has an oil based economy, we have wells, and also refine, we are industrial, and so copper wire is still
fairly easy to get. We don't really do Tourism.

Anyhow Anthony is or will be in England and then later Italy at his family's homes.
He was unable to provide images of us drawing wire, as, well we have never taken photos of us doing it - why would we ?????
He may make an appearance, but will be scarce for several months, especially since he is retired and his three sons, are all schooled.

I spent some time studying / developing Jewellery Alloys and use the information for making mostly rings, but I cannot share the images of my work or the alloy formulas due to the nature of the Internet. I believe you would understand this as I gave Anthony permission to share with you the visual information on I believe my house's floors.
I also asked him see if he could send the images directly to you and not BSG's email service.

I use and was taught Ling Nan, clip and grow, by my cousins in China, my grandfather was from Canton, and I have family around that area, plus help from Japanese and Italian folk as well. I studied Fine Art in Florence. By combining the clip and grow with wiring on younger specimens, I can bypass the scarring many folk get.
This is my 35th year or so in Tree penjing [ since I don't fully follow the Japanese Bonsai way, which makes my trees weird, and also because they are based on drawn examples of mature plants in nature ] Anthony has about 25+ years in the craft.

Anyhow if you see him suggest ideas, but no images, it is because they are my personal research, inventions or information passed on by my cousins.
There is too much copying on the internet, too much lifting of ideas, and in the area of Fine Art, it is considered to be especially bad form.

Apologies to the group this is off topic.
Laters.
Khaimraj [ IBCer ]
 
Speaking as a jeweler and the owner of a couple jewelry businesses - most jewelers in this country do not make their own wire. Homemade wire is a giant pain in the ass. It is always full of porosity and constantly breaks while drawing down if you are getting thin. I know hundreds and hundreds of jewelers (I lived and worked in Manhattan for 10yrs doing jewelry) and very few make wire. Thats what jewelry supply companies are for - surprisingly just like bonsai supply stores.
 
choppychoppy said:
Speaking as a jeweler and the owner of a couple jewelry businesses - most jewelers in this country do not make their own wire. Homemade wire is a giant pain in the ass. It is always full of porosity and constantly breaks while drawing down if you are getting thin. I know hundreds and hundreds of jewelers (I lived and worked in Manhattan for 10yrs doing jewelry) and very few make wire. Thats what jewelry supply companies are for - surprisingly just like bonsai supply stores.
Click to expand...
Hmmm, that sounds excessively convenient....these slacking jewelers are ARE American, I would guess, so it makes sense.
 
Adair M said:
I don't know of a video on detail wiring. But the idea is for pines, the last loop of wire comes underneath the base of the needles, and then it turns up, and a little back. Shaped like a fishhook. With no barb. The loop of wire supports the bottom needles, so they don't point down. The fishhook turns the cut end of the wire back towards the trunk. This means the cut end is not facing the viewer. The cut ends can "glisten", and be more apparent. With the fishhook, there's a little loop of wire under the base of the needles, and it's hidden. And finally, when it's time to remove the wire, it's easy to grab the fishhook with the pliers to spin the wire back off.

The unwinding the wire is controversial on this site! Many say you can't do it without harming the tree. (Not true!). But in another thread these same people will say they prefer aluminum to copper because they can reuse the aluminum wire! Hmmm... How can they reuse it if they cut it off on chunks?
Click to expand...

You can reuse the wire if it comes off in pieces long enough to be practical and usable. As things are for me right now; unless I am putting wire on something where the new look of wire may be important, I haven't used more than about 10% new wire on any one wiring job in about five years. When doing demos I use fresh wire, when doing my own trees I reuse aluminum. I do straighten it out but I don't mind.
 
sorce said:
How bout you send me some blood diamonds, and I'll send you some copper.
Click to expand...

And just a side note - blood diamonds are the result of slavery, rape, murder, incredible human abuses and ecological ruination. So not really funny on any level.
 
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