Aluminum vs Copper Price Wise

[Anthony]

1. Before I forget, when we purchased stock out of China, via the UK, quite a few came with iron wire, some were wrapped and some were just what looked like galvanised iron wire [ what we call - cutlass wire ]
2. It was rusted, but when we asked about it, we were told in time it would add character, after removal.
3. ,Sorry about the 1, 2, 3, bit, must have touched something from the above.

In case you are wondering, brother-in-law took up Jewellery making as a hobby in 1999 or so, works in wire drawing on alloys, or pounding wires into rings. This is how I know copper can be re-melted and drawn into heavy gauge wire. Also works with with titanium, niobium, tantalum and tin etc.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Once again, don't you guys have friends who are jewellers ?

You can cast a barrel, compress and draw to the gauge you need. On our side, you will be allowed to do it for yourself from scratch.
Tooooooo much love of convenience.
Why make problems, when none exist.
Good Day
Anthony

WTF? Why do you always come up with a harder way to do things? I cannot see how it would be possible if you figured TIME, labor, and everything else that you could "make" coper or aluminium wire cheaper than buy it.

 

[DougB]

Alarm!!! Let me throw a stick in the spokes of your mighty bicycle. You have done a great job of comparing the same size aluminum and copper wire. This is useful, however the strength/holding power of aluminum is far less than copper. We all know that we have to use more and bigger aluminum to do the same job as copper, hence why copper is more frequently used on pines, etc.

So the real comparison would be to determine the sizes of comparative strengths of aluminum and copper wire AND then determine a price comparison. Doing this would make my brain hurt, SO anyone out there able and willing??????

 

[A Random User]

In this case yes for a small amount of wire it is a wash. But as you said you go through a lot of wire. It would make sense to get it in bulk. Stone lantern offers 1 kilo of 2.0 wire for $19.50. This brings the price per foot down significantly.

1 kilo of 2.0 Al wire --> $19.50/380' = ¢5.1 per foot
100 gram 18 gauge Cu wire --> $4.80/50' = ¢9.6 per foot

For an equivalent length of copper wire it would be $36.48 using the per foot price. That is not a small difference. There may be a discount for buying x number of kilos of from Adam's Bonsai but I would bet its not almost 50%.

I hear what you are saying! And not trying to argue with you, I don't think that Adam's Bonsai sells in large quantities...
Having said that... I would not see why, if one is pretty much able to meet the price with copper at the 100 gram roll, why it could not be done at the kilo as well?
I understand that copper is worth a little more as folks have pointed out, in this thread, but coming in at the same or below price is quite an eye opener!
At least it is for me!

 

[A Random User]

Alarm!!! Let me throw a stick in the spokes of your mighty bicycle. You have done a great job of comparing the same size aluminum and copper wire. This is useful, however the strength/holding power of aluminum is far less than copper. We all know that we have to use more and bigger aluminum to do the same job as copper, hence why copper is more frequently used on pines, etc.

So the real comparison would be to determine the sizes of comparative strengths of aluminum and copper wire AND then determine a price comparison. Doing this would make my brain hurt, SO anyone out there able and willing??????

Thanks for the reply, I did take this into account. hence why I said the following in my opening post...

I have chosen to use No. 2 aluminum wire in this comparison, due to what I believe is the closest to the 18 gauge copper wire in terms of relevant strength.

 

[A Random User]

I prefer Aluminum because I find it easier to work with FOR ME! Copper has an annoying trait of binding up once it is bent and becomes more difficult to move after that has happened. I tend to move a branch here and then ---- there I find copper makes changing my mind difficult and counter productive. I also reuse wire OMG shoot me now. It is really difficult to reuse copper wire. As I mentioned previously once you bend copper it become like a steel bar. You try unwinding this stuff off of a branch, odds are you will injur the branch. So you really can only use copper one time. Therefor I have Aluminum wire I have reused over and over for many years. I am sure there are going to be mountains of criticism for this but there you go. I save a lot of money because I don't have to buy it over and over year after year. It has been at least five years since I invested any amount of money into wire.

This is fine Vance... this thread was only regarding the price!
That's why it is in the title of the thread!

 

[A Random User]

Once again, don't you guys have friends who are jewellers ?

You can cast a barrel, compress and draw to the gauge you need. On our side, you will be allowed to do it for yourself from scratch.
Tooooooo much love of convenience.
Why make problems, when none exist.
Good Day
Anthony

Thanks for the reply! I understand where you are coming from and I also understand where everyone else is coming from!

From my own personal experience I will say the following... "Time" for me is the most expensive thing in the world!
It will always be this way, we have so little of it here on earth, that I am not going to futz around with things that are not important to me!
I will always gladly throw down wads of cash so I don't have to spend this time worrying about these things!

If these things are important to you, that is awesome! They are where then you should be spending your time! If not, then perhaps one should reevaluate?

 

[Anthony]

Mellow Mullet,

ask yourself a question, if we have been making wire alloys since 1999, don't you think that we can do it efficiently, and a Saturday would give enough wire for a long time?

@sorce,
Hey I just got an e-mail from K, asking me to reset the oldest pine's lowest branch, [ seen in the topic on Pines, where Sifu [ Adair ] is teaching us ] with iron wire in a rubber coating. Takes 2 years of our sun easily, and if you pull the rubber over the cut ends, does not rust.

If you get a chance check out IBC members trees - topics by K, you might find them fun.

If you use Ling Nan - clip and grow, you decrease the need for wire and the angularity of the cut, tends to age a tree very effectively.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[sorce]

TIME

Again.
Island time just ain't city time!
It true!

@Anthony

I'm with you.
You never stated, "You must go do this".

And whoever Can.....now knows!

I wish I was on Island time too!
And I don't hate you!
And you don't hate me!

Haters!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

@sorce,
Hey I just got an e-mail from K, asking me to reset the oldest pine's lowest branch, [ seen in the topic on Pines, where Sifu [ Adair ] is teaching us ] with iron wire in a rubber coating. Takes 2 years of our sun easily, and if you pull the rubber over the cut ends, does not rust.

Thank you!

Sorce

 

[Anthony]

Sawgrass,

I get you - but as a Tropical islander - I tease you as a friend - no winter, no cold to have to buy food or clothing for, or house to heat or cool.
Time in bonsai is little if you start as a teenager/young adult, and are not into sales.
Best to you.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[A Random User]

Mellow Mullet,

ask yourself a question, if we have been making wire alloys since 1999, don't you think that we can do it efficiently, and a Saturday would give enough wire for a long time?

@sorce,
Hey I just got an e-mail from K, asking me to reset the oldest pine's lowest branch, [ seen in the topic on Pines, where Sifu [ Adair ] is teaching us ] with iron wire in a rubber coating. Takes 2 years of our sun easily, and if you pull the rubber over the cut ends, does not rust.

If you get a chance check out IBC members trees - topics by K, you might find them fun.

If you use Ling Nan - clip and grow, you decrease the need for wire and the angularity of the cut, tends to age a tree very effectively.
Good Day
Anthony

This thread was not about anyone complaining about the need for wire? I don't wish to decrease my wire use... quite the contrary, I would love to use more! This would mean I would be doing more trees!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I am looking for the intelligent wire that will automatically wrap itself around a branch, and then on a command, unwrap itself.

It would help if I could control it via Wifi so I didn't have to go outside.

 

[A Random User]

Sawgrass,

I get you - but as a Tropical islander - I tease you as a friend - no winter, no cold to have to buy food or clothing for, or house to heat or cool.
Time in bonsai is little if you start as a teenager/young adult, and are not into sales.
Best to you.
Good Day
Anthony

I understand "Island Time" Anthony, Jamaica for years was pretty much my second home...
A lot of "Island Time" funny enough is spent on "Survival"... seeing that often there is a lack of resources to pick and choose from.
So, often there is a need to make things, out of necessity, due to this lack of availability.
Here, we have it shipped and received in a day or two. and keep busy working on the trees!

 

[thumblessprimate1]

I am looking for the intelligent wire that will automatically wrap itself around a branch, and then on a command, unwrap itself.

It would help if I could control it via Wifi so I didn't have to go outside.

 

[rockm]

Yes, I see the distraction has worked - forget the discussion - side road - and no answers.

Well how about this, the copper scrapped from wiring is re-melted and re-used. What about sweeping the floors for 1/2" or less pieces at the electrical places.

Making wire is very simple, and aluminium scrap also exists in other aluminium businesses, for us it would be awning and tubing. You can get that metal by the pound.
Anyone else with possible answers ?
Good Day
Anthony

* Hmm down here to get aluminium cans, just by asking the places that sell drinks if they would hold the cans for us. Most just put them into a separate garbage bag, for free, no highways needed.

Jesus, I have a day job.

simple answer, my money and time are my own

Mellow Mullet,

ask yourself a question, if we have been making wire alloys since 1999, don't you think that we can do it efficiently, and a Saturday would give enough wire for a long time?

@sorce,
Hey I just got an e-mail from K, asking me to reset the oldest pine's lowest branch, [ seen in the topic on Pines, where Sifu [ Adair ] is teaching us ] with iron wire in a rubber coating. Takes 2 years of our sun easily, and if you pull the rubber over the cut ends, does not rust.

If you get a chance check out IBC members trees - topics by K, you might find them fun.

If you use Ling Nan - clip and grow, you decrease the need for wire and the angularity of the cut, tends to age a tree very effectively.
Good Day
Anthony

Err. devote a Saturday to making my own bonsai wire? Really? Jesus, are you married, do you have kids, a dog? Have a life?

This sounds a lot like the crap Martha Stewart used to dish out to make people feel guilty for not making their own cheese for Gawd's sake.

I get wire from Julian Adams when I need it. Pay for the convenience of not having to scrounge iron wire, make alloys or extrude my own. I also don't plant wheat, own a scythe or employ a grist mill to make my own bread. I do however, on occasion, kill my own meat, grow my own vegetables and make my own beer, so I'm not completely spoiled, incompetent or whatever you think us wire-buyers are...

 

[jeanluc83]

In case you are wondering, brother-in-law took up Jewellery making as a hobby in 1999 or so, works in wire drawing on alloys, or pounding wires into rings. This is how I know copper can be re-melted and drawn into heavy gauge wire. Also works with with titanium, niobium, tantalum and tin etc.

I don't think anyone was questioning it being possible. It has to do with economy. Ask your brother-in-law how much he would charge someone for the work he does.

Also ask how long it took him to learn the skills needed to draw wire and to acquire the tools needed. You talk like it is a very simple thing that anyone can do. I think most people here would rather spend their time working on trees rather than making wire.

 

[jeanluc83]

I understand that copper is worth a little more as folks have pointed out, in this thread, but coming in at the same or below price is quite an eye opener!

I think when you get into the realm of annealing your own wire, you certainly can get the price of copper below aluminum. Annealing your own wire is doable, drawing your own wire, not so much.

 

[GrimLore]

No alleys?

Luster Leaf Garden Wire 50' of 50mm 3.69USD
Luster Leaf Garden Wire 164" of 10mm 3.99 USD

Those prices are actually a bit high but that is AGWAY on any hardware...

iron wire in a rubber coating. Takes 2 years of our sun easily, and if you pull the rubber over the cut ends, does not rust.

I find it actually stretches the coating a bit so you don't have to pull it over the ends most times.

Mind you it works really well on finer soft branches, fast and inexpensive. I did 20 branches quickly on this Red Cedar as it was all growing straight upwards. Did not take long at all and as flexible as Aluminum. For the small stuff I find it holds better then Aluminum as well while just as easy to use...



Grimmy

 

[sorce]

t would help if I could control it via Wifi so I didn't have to go outside

Bonsai stealing drones. ...

Nanobot wire!

To the silicon valley fast as lightning!

Sorce