Aluminum vs Copper Price Wise

Mellow Mullet said:
WTF? Why do you always come up with a harder way to do things? I cannot see how it would be possible if you figured TIME, labor, and everything else that you could "make" coper or aluminium wire cheaper than buy it.
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I am surprised that you don't recognize BS when you see it. I cannot as yet locate the melting point of aluminum but I bet it is substantially higher than that of Gold or Silver that a Jeweler friend would have available.
 
Vance Wood said:
I am surprised that you don't recognize BS when you see it. I cannot as yet locate the melting point of aluminum but I bet it is substantially higher than that of Gold or Silver that a Jeweler friend would have available.
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Actually, it's lower then both gold or silver...660 C for aluminum vs 961 C for silver and 1064 C for gold...but that doesn't change the relative value of Anthony's posts here...they're still crap.
 
jeanluc83 said:
I think when you get into the realm of annealing your own wire, you certainly can get the price of copper below aluminum. Annealing your own wire is doable, drawing your own wire, not so much.
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I understand and agree! And since we are the only one's discussing really the comparison of prices, lol! I was merely expressing what I found. I have always heard that Aluminum was drastically cheaper, than Copper... and only till recently questioned this theory. Even if we were to agree to disagree over it being so... on one tree, one would only being saving pennies at most. This is not a huge saving...

For, most doing bonsai who are not perhaps a large scale operation , this saving does not really justify one verses the other. So, then it would be more of personal preference of what they feel the most comfortable using... as well as visually most comfortable seeing on their tree.
 
@GrimLore
Yes. I was looking at a roll of Vigoro garden wire from the depot.
Like 100 ft. $3.99

Seems excellent for fine wiring,
But bad cuz it's green! (Gets lost)
Maybe good for winter wiring!

Sorce
 
sawgrass said:
For, most doing bonsai who are not perhaps a large scale operation , this saving does not really justify one verses the other.
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I use both and both can be reused. Copper needs another shot in the fire but I have a fire enough times in the year it is of no big deal. Fact - in smaller use either is pretty damn expensive. For example the Red Cedar I posted at a cost of 0USD would have been a lot to do over 20 branches - the rubber coated metal not anywhere close. I could of used copper and reused it but sometimes it just does not seem to be economical or in my opinion time efficient... If small and temporary, not going to the big show, in training I go with what works on a dime. Just me? - No F'n way - I have seen much more experienced people do the same. The difference with them is people will just ask 1 time what is with the colored wire - me they would just scoff at... If you spend less time on money on the "little" things you open a door to bigger and better things financially and time wise...

Grimmy
 
GrimLore said:
I use both and both can be reused. Copper needs another shot in the fire but I have a fire enough times in the year it is of no big deal. Fact - in smaller use either is pretty damn expensive. For example the Red Cedar I posted at a cost of 0USD would have been a lot to do over 20 branches - the rubber coated metal not anywhere close. I could of used copper and reused it but sometimes it just does not seem to be economical or in my opinion time efficient... If small and temporary, not going to the big show, in training I go with what works on a dime. Just me? - No F'n way - I have seen much more experienced people do the same. The difference with them is people will just ask 1 time what is with the colored wire - me they would just scoff at... If you spend less time on money on the "little" things you open a door to bigger and better things financially and time wise...

Grimmy
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We all find ways where saving money is important and areas that they are not. To each their own... where one chooses to save is where they should save.

This thread had little to do with this... for some they have chosen to make this the subject of the discussion and that is fine. However, if one was to note, the intention of the thread was to just question the difference in pricing and if so, how much of a difference.

Other than perhaps the subject that was brought up regarding buying in bulk... which I nor probably anyone else can necessarily argue either way, since we don't have those numbers. Yes, if one buys aluminum in bulk, the price goes down... as I am sure copper would as well, but, unless someone can show where someone is selling in bulk so we can compare... I would have to say this is inconclusive, and for the moment, we can only argue the numbers that we do have. Which seem to be pretty equally matched.

This is not a push for one thing or another, just thought it would be interesting to see with actual numbers and less "well I think so..." If I am wrong, I don't have a problem with that... this was not a competition to show I am right. Was merely a topic that came up, and thought worth discussing and seeing what was the reality. Folks can decide for themselves what they want to spend their money on... none of my concern.
 
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I'm pretty sure Gremel sells wire in larger spools than Julian, if I can locate the receipts for my purchase (ha, not likely) I'll post the sizes and cost compared to Julian's. Maybe Adair has that info handy.

I think Colin Lewis did an interesting comparison in his wiring video series, where he evaluated the relative strengths of copper and aluminum by seeing how much weight it would take to bend each. I don't know if that's a really accurate comparison, though, because it doesn't take into account the work hardening that occurs with copper...just the basic force required to bend the wire.
 
coh said:
I'm pretty sure Gremel sells wire in larger spools than Julian, if I can locate the receipts for my purchase (ha, not likely) I'll post the sizes and cost compared to Julian's. Maybe Adair has that info handy.

I think Colin Lewis did an interesting comparison in his wiring video series, where he evaluated the relative strengths of copper and aluminum by seeing how much weight it would take to bend each. I don't know if that's a really accurate comparison, though, because it doesn't take into account the work hardening that occurs with copper...just the basic force required to bend the wire.
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If one can find this info, or if anyone else has it, please share!
As I said, this was only what I have available and what I know to be true... if I am wrong, I am cool with that. Just think it would be nice to have facts verses here say.

I knew when I posted this thread that perhaps I could be wrong, and welcome the proof showing it. I think it is more important to have the actual numbers than it is to be right... so people can make an educated purchase based on this info.
 
So, in comparison to Gremel wire prices he sells the 18 gauge wire for $12 and Stone lanterns closest comparison, if one does the conversion from pounds to grams is the 500 gram roll of No. 2 wire is $12.50 However, in the conversion 1 pound actually ends up being only 454 grams, so one would have to include more to the amount of the copper to get the equation equal...
 
sawgrass said:
However, if one was to note, the intention of the thread was to just question the difference in pricing and if so, how much of a difference.
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Understood... Best way to do that is to look into Metric Ton Pricing of similar of lets say 20mm Copper and Aluminum. Obvious "in my mind" Alibaba is a good place to search for that information... It would be most efficient to look at the Chinese bulk market - or no?

Grimmy
 
GrimLore said:
Understood... Best way to do that is to look into Metric Ton Pricing of similar of lets say 20mm Copper and Aluminum. Obvious "in my mind" Alibaba is a good place to search for that information... It would be most efficient to look at the Chinese bulk market - or no?

Grimmy
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Looks like someone has some light reading and simple math to do! It is almost the weekend, so don't spend to much time on it!
 
sawgrass said:
You guys as well! Have a good weekend!
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Thank you and you as well, check your PM here please or it will have to wait until Tuesday - I am pretty certain you will like what I present.

Grimmy
 
I thought America was a tropical island...... Aren't there lotsa old folk in palm tree ridden shirts driving slowly up to Cape Carnaval past brown pelicans. You launch spaceships from America don't you? If you are south of that place called Greenland you must be REALLY green, so I guess loads of tropical rain. Quit whining, give up ya day jobs and melt cans. What's wrong with you people? Where's your commitment. Hell, I live in Africa. It's south of France where fries come from. We are third world here, so unlike you first world folks we don't have the luxury of metal here, so bonsai is REALLY time consuming. A lot of us use clip and grow because standing around for six weeks holding a branch waiting for it to set is a bit inconvenient. I find my fingers go numb after about two weeks. Once a buddy of mine one managed to get some wire from the first world. We managed to wire the tree, and it was going well until he plugged the wire into the mains. We think he must have swapped live with neutral cause the house tripped. It was pretty cool.
 
There was a thread that figured out how to price compare Adams and Gremel. If my memory is correct, Gremel's came out less per foot. But Gremel's spools are larger in diameter, and heavier than Adams.

So, maybe if you want some wire, but don't need a lot, buy from Adams. If you use a lot of copper, it's more economical to buy from Gremel.

Gremel also offers free shipping if your order is over a certain weight or amount. (Can't remember which the discount is based on.)

I've "talked wire" with Gremel and Adams. Gremel tells me there are a couple of wholesalers of copper, and the quality varies between them. One is purer copper than the other. I think he says it costs a little more. But it's the one he gets.

Neither of these guys are spring chickens. I usually buy two rolls of every size. On my next order, I think I'll double or triple that. (I don't use very much 18, and even less 20, and never used 22 even though I have a roll.

I mostly style JBP. The sizes I use most are 14 and 16. Never 18.

On JWP, I'll use some 18, nothing finer than that.

The 20s are good for super detail wiring of juniper, and some shohin. I once wired a shohin zelkova. Had to use tweezers! I felt like I was making a ship in a bottle!
 
Anthony said:
Mellow Mullet,

ask yourself a question, if we have been making wire alloys since 1999, don't you think that we can do it efficiently, and a Saturday would give enough wire for a long time
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No, I don't. Gonna have to call BS on this. Do you have pictures? Show us.
 
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