A Few Ponderings of Naturalistic Style

[Hannahmm]

I am a complete beginner and new to all of Bonsai but based off of all that I have read in books, websites and especially this forum, bonsai is like any other fad, hobby what have you, in that from person to person opinions on "whats right" or "correct" vary drastically with some core historic guidelines. I have seen pictures of bonsai species that are frowned upon as bonsai raised and trained in very stunning ways that follow bonsai rules but seem to take on the form of another tree or else cultivated and worked with the tree/shrubs natural tendencies and growth patterns with a little guidance create very stunning specimens. So to @James W. said style it to whatever looks good (or natural in this case) even if/when it ends up representing a different species. If you can have a clump or multi-trunk maple and still have it be a tree bonsai even though that's kina a shrub growth tendency then why can't you grow a beautiful azalea bonsai that grows like a shrub into a beautiful natural bonsai tree.

(sorry if none of that made sence im not good at getting my thoughts out on "paper")

 

[just.wing.it]

Azalea trees in Gaoligong Mountains in Tengchong

http://www.yunnanadventure.com/index.php/Attraction/show/id/455.html

Whoa! For real!?
Dang!
I gotta look into this...
Thank you!

 

[Potawatomi13]

Fractal Geometry is the concept where it seems that a shape repeats itself over and over within the paramaters of the same object on the atomic level. You can look this stuff up even on Wikipedia it will probably give you better difinitions than I, but it is the seemingly repeatable sequence of the same pattern that makes up all living things. The Fibonacci sequence is the way they fall together best shown by the structure of the conch shell or things like that. It is essentially the mathematical relationship of five to one (like Pi) that forms these things.
Fibonacci numbers are closely related to Lucas numbers Ln

in that they form a complementary pair of Lucas sequences Un(1,−1)=Fn

and Vn(1,−1)=Ln

. They are intimately connected with the golden ratio; for example, the closest rational approximations to the ratio are 2/1, 3/2, 5/3, 8/5, ... .

Fibonacci numbers appear unexpectedly often in mathematics, so much so that there is an entire journal dedicated to their study, the Fibonacci Quarterly. Applications of Fibonacci numbers include computer algorithms such as the Fibonacci search technique and the Fibonacci heap data structure, and graphs called Fibonacci cubes used for interconnecting parallel and distributed systems. They also appear in biological settings,[10] such as branching in trees, phyllotaxis (the arrangement of leaves on a stem), the fruit sprouts of a pineapple,[11] the flowering of an artichoke, an uncurling fernand the arrangement of a pine cone's bracts.[12]

The above is a over-view pasted from Wikpedea. This deserves a lot more research and attention. How does this apply to the naturalistic style??? The Fibonacci sequence is at the foundation of all things, it's just the way it is. If you have a bonsai that does not work artistically you can analyze it by the traditional rules and find the reason it does not work or looks more than odd. When you are dealing with something like the Naturalistic style that in many cases does not follow the traditional rules you have to go to the rules of nature to find the answers, there you may encounter the Fibonaccu sequence.

Excellent elaboration why higher math was beyond personal grasp!

 

[Potawatomi13]

Does the "naturalistic" style apply to junipers??
How bout azaleas??

Have you ever seen a juniper bonsai that looks like a mature juniper???

How bout an azalea bonsai that looks like a mature Azalea???

What does a mature Azalea, in the wild, even look like???

Any examples?

Consider how some Manzanita and Juniper grow naturally. Azalea is much like Manzanita and surely some few could be found so contorted. These old or contorted Manzanita and Juniper can be found on this forum. While not being common form for these or most trees such CAN be found naturally. To appear as natural style so called "refined"(honestly OVER) stylized form needs to be avoided.

 

[sorce]

Bout that....

We can go over Fibbonacci in plants, blah, snails, blah, corn cobs, blah....

But HOW does it RELATE TO BONSAI?

Pi Hand Strong!

Seriously.

Any act of damage or age or interest or any feature of a real tree that we are trying to emulate is not random.

It's Pi.

The Avalanche falls to Pi.
The Sand blows to Pi.
The Lightning strikes to Pi.

DTFM!

Pi+Fibonacci = Beautiful Trees.

The result of the beauty in nature is Pi's effect on Fibonacci.

It's always the same Numbers crashing against each other which is why the result is always amazing.

We Grow Fibonacci, Our effects must be Pi.


Which is why you really do have to become one with your trees.

It's why you have to listen to them.
Listen thru touch.

Stop believing there is a difference between you and the tree.
Erase that feeling of separation.

I'm going to start wiring my trees barefoot.

scratching

Fibonacci

Sorce

 

[twisted trees]

Plausible and Surrealistic. These are the two concepts that best apply to the naturalistic style----IMHO. Plausible are those things that look like they could, would, should and might happen under the right circumstances. Surrealistic are those things that pass into the realm of fantasy and imagination and are often coupled with the Plausible. The terms chaos and anarchical are for the most part excluded from this debate because all life and form is in one way or another related to the Fibonacci sequence. So almost anything is doable as a bonsai style. You do not have to follow the age old "bonsai rules" that define styles and forms that have been practiced in bonsai started in the 7th Century, but you do have to adhere to the fundamentals of life, like the Fibonacci sequence in order to produce something that is plausible or Surrealistic.

Nice. If your talking about being a bonsai artist and not just an enthusiast it helps to know what elevates bonsai to the level of being art.

As an artist I see it as using the knowledge and understanding of your medium, tools and techniques to evoke a certain sense in the viewer. The closer the viewer comes to a sense that the artist intended the more that artist becomes a master.

This calls for a clear vision by the artist. Using any style or form is valid if it returns a desired effect and turns a viewer into a participant by evoking an exploration of their senses and emotions.

 

[twisted trees]

Thanks, and yes, I agree....from the pics I've seen of old paintings of bonsai, in books, the trees are more natural, or less refined, for sure.

Chinese penjing is the root of naturalistic styles but are still highly stylized according to landscape painting ideals of the culture.

 

[twisted trees]

Fractal Geometry is the concept where it seems that a shape repeats itself over and over within the paramaters of the same object on the atomic level. You can look this stuff up even on Wikipedia it will probably give you better difinitions than I, but it is the seemingly repeatable sequence of the same pattern that makes up all living things. The Fibonacci sequence is the way they fall together best shown by the structure of the conch shell or things like that. It is essentially the mathematical relationship of five to one (like Pi) that forms these things.
Fibonacci numbers are closely related to Lucas numbers Ln

in that they form a complementary pair of Lucas sequences Un(1,−1)=Fn

and Vn(1,−1)=Ln

. They are intimately connected with the golden ratio; for example, the closest rational approximations to the ratio are 2/1, 3/2, 5/3, 8/5, ... .

Fibonacci numbers appear unexpectedly often in mathematics, so much so that there is an entire journal dedicated to their study, the Fibonacci Quarterly. Applications of Fibonacci numbers include computer algorithms such as the Fibonacci search technique and the Fibonacci heap data structure, and graphs called Fibonacci cubes used for interconnecting parallel and distributed systems. They also appear in biological settings,[10] such as branching in trees, phyllotaxis (the arrangement of leaves on a stem), the fruit sprouts of a pineapple,[11] the flowering of an artichoke, an uncurling fernand the arrangement of a pine cone's bracts.[12]

The above is a over-view pasted from Wikpedea. This deserves a lot more research and attention. How does this apply to the naturalistic style??? The Fibonacci sequence is at the foundation of all things, it's just the way it is. If you have a bonsai that does not work artistically you can analyze it by the traditional rules and find the reason it does not work or looks more than odd. When you are dealing with something like the Naturalistic style that in many cases does not follow the traditional rules you have to go to the rules of nature to find the answers, there you may encounter the Fibonaccu sequence.

Check out the cover of David DeGroot's bonsai design book and you will see a fine example on the cover using William Valavanis' RAF Dwarf Scots pine. I'm not good enough on the phone to paste the cover. If someone could do that. Bill?

 

[Vance Wood]

Nice. If your talking about being a bonsai artist and not just an enthusiast it helps to know what elevates bonsai to the level of being art.

As an artist I see it as using the knowledge and understanding of your medium, tools and techniques to evoke a certain sense in the viewer. The closer the viewer comes to a sense that the artist intended the more that artist becomes a master.

This calls for a clear vision by the artist. Using any style or form is valid if it returns a desired effect and turns a viewer into a participant by evoking an exploration of their senses and emotions.

The question was asked. What is one supposed to do???, sit back and ignore the question because some may not understand the answer?? You wrote: Nice. If your talking about being a bonsai artist and not just an enthusiast it helps to know what elevates bonsai to the level of being art. This forum is not just for beginners, and details about this particular style and how it is defined was the question.

 

[twisted trees]

Vance, I’m just telling what I remember hearing from Daisaku Nomoto (Boon’s senior). His English is not the best, so it’s hard for him to explain a lot of subtleties. He just said the the bonsai people were a separate group than the azalea people. Some do both, but for the most part they’re segregated.

Vegetative bigots!

 

[twisted trees]

Azalea trees in Gaoligong Mountains in Tengchong

http://www.yunnanadventure.com/index.php/Attraction/show/id/455.html

If the cattle didn't feed on them would they be shrubs?

 

[twisted trees]

The question was asked. What is one supposed to do???, sit back and ignore the question because some may not understand the answer?? You wrote: Nice. If your talking about being a bonsai artist and not just an enthusiast it helps to know what elevates bonsai to the level of being art. This forum is not just for beginners, and details about this particular style and how it is defined was the question.

I understand and appreciated your answer. Great discussion.

 

[Hannahmm]

If the cattle didn't feed on them would they be shrubs?[/QUOT}]

I have lived and worked on ranches most my life and cows don't really feed on a tree or shrub and if they did they wouldn't eat the branches. You'll see them eat aspen leaves in the spring some time but if cows are "eating" trees they are probably starving! I have seen plenty of sagebrush eaten but they were coming off the desert for the spring and were out of feed. But then again those are probably wagyu cattle, who knows they could be crazy tree eaters...

 

[Adair M]

Azalea trees in Gaoligong Mountains in Tengchong

http://www.yunnanadventure.com/index.php/Attraction/show/id/455.html

Those look more like Rhododendrum to me. But, they are not just ordinary very old azalea. For one thing, they’re estimated to be 500 years old. Our typical azalea usually don’t live to 100.

 

[MichaelS]

Wow, I didn’t know there are kinds that grow this tall.

They don't. These are not azaleas.

 

[MichaelS]

Sometimes the Japanese can be very clannish and stodgy about things and then they can be very poor about transmitting the reason behind this point of view.

Not only that, they can have bizarre tastes too. For example, genetically deformed flowers - just because they are different.

 

[MichaelS]

here is my naturalistic azalea. Well rhododendron actually.
This type fits more for naturalistic then azalea I think.
Azalea as they appear in nature isn’t appealing as bonsai to me.

View attachment 168033

That has one of the worst cases of Azalea Lace Bug I've ever seen.
https://www.google.com/search?q=aza...3ooNbXAhXBKJQKHQmwAkcQsAQISQ&biw=1920&bih=933

 

[flyinmanatee]

Fractal Geometry is the concept where it seems that a shape repeats itself over and over within the paramaters of the same object on the atomic level. You can look this stuff up even on Wikipedia it will probably give you better difinitions than I, but it is the seemingly repeatable sequence of the same pattern that makes up all living things. The Fibonacci sequence is the way they fall together best shown by the structure of the conch shell or things like that. It is essentially the mathematical relationship of five to one (like Pi) that forms these things.
Fibonacci numbers are closely related to Lucas numbers Ln

in that they form a complementary pair of Lucas sequences Un(1,−1)=Fn

and Vn(1,−1)=Ln

. They are intimately connected with the golden ratio; for example, the closest rational approximations to the ratio are 2/1, 3/2, 5/3, 8/5, ... .

Fibonacci numbers appear unexpectedly often in mathematics, so much so that there is an entire journal dedicated to their study, the Fibonacci Quarterly. Applications of Fibonacci numbers include computer algorithms such as the Fibonacci search technique and the Fibonacci heap data structure, and graphs called Fibonacci cubes used for interconnecting parallel and distributed systems. They also appear in biological settings,[10] such as branching in trees, phyllotaxis (the arrangement of leaves on a stem), the fruit sprouts of a pineapple,[11] the flowering of an artichoke, an uncurling fernand the arrangement of a pine cone's bracts.[12]

The above is a over-view pasted from Wikpedea. This deserves a lot more research and attention. How does this apply to the naturalistic style??? The Fibonacci sequence is at the foundation of all things, it's just the way it is. If you have a bonsai that does not work artistically you can analyze it by the traditional rules and find the reason it does not work or looks more than odd. When you are dealing with something like the Naturalistic style that in many cases does not follow the traditional rules you have to go to the rules of nature to find the answers, there you may encounter the Fibonaccu sequence.

I have been doing some reading on spirals in nature etc... and from my limited math background I think my brain cells are starting to spiral. So far I'm having a hard time making the leap from Fibs occuring all over nature and your premise of being the "basis" or foundation of EVERYTHING. For example a spider will spin it's web in an Archimedian (non-logarithmic) spiral. Can I ask if your enjecting intelligent design into this? Thanks.

 

[Djtommy]

That has one of the worst cases of Azalea Lace Bug I've ever seen.
https://www.google.com/search?q=aza...3ooNbXAhXBKJQKHQmwAkcQsAQISQ&biw=1920&bih=933

Thanx for noticing, I have seen worse though. It’s already been threatened just like my other ones、this seems to be a problem every year. Probably don’t spray enough.
I use a product orutoran normally. Works good on maples

 

[Vance Wood]

I have been doing some reading on spirals in nature etc... and from my limited math background I think my brain cells are starting to spiral. So far I'm having a hard time making the leap from Fibs occuring all over nature and your premise of being the "basis" or foundation of EVERYTHING. For example a spider will spin it's web in an Archimedian (non-logarithmic) spiral. Can I ask if your enjecting intelligent design into this? Thanks.

I am not implying, injecting, or inferring anything, what you see is what you see and how it happens or why it happens is a matter of conclusion by the observer.