9-year progression, large JBP

[Adair M]

Sparce as in shorter needles?

Or sparce as in fewer branchlets?

I'm thinking it's the shorter needles, primarily. Also, for that 2009 picture, every tip was wired and "tweeked" into precisely the best position. This is a very tedious and time consuming process. (At least it is for me!). Not that I don't enjoy it, I do!!

Eric, share with us: how long did you work on the tree in 2009 to get it prepped for the show?

 

[Vance Wood]

Sparce as in shorter needles?

Or sparce as in fewer branchlets?

I'm thinking it's the shorter needles, primarily. Also, for that 2009 picture, every tip was wired and "tweeked" into precisely the best position. This is a very tedious and time consuming process. (At least it is for me!). Not that I don't enjoy it, I do!!

Eric, share with us: how long did you work on the tree in 2009 to get it prepped for the show?

Eric: I think you have done a magnificent job with designing this tree and for my money it should have been displayed in the national show, maybe it was and I was not aware. But for what it's worth from the likes of me, the image as displayed earlier is absolutely a fall down, kick ass, drop dead gorgeous tree and the last thing I want to do is offend you and put you as another member of the Vance Wood is a Stupid Shit club.

I know it seems to be agreed that I should not comment about JBP's. However my original assessment about this tree shows exactly what I mean and why I have problems with the adherents of JBP's to the exclusion of all others.

It seems you guys boast about all of the positive aspects of the species, I hear about short needles and compactness of growth but yet you produce a masterpiece like this tree and then let it do what JBP's do naturally; produce really long needles that destroy an image where you can actually see the primary and secondary branching. All of the beautiful movement Eric put into the design is hidden beneath. Now it is a profile tree, beautiful as it may be, and as far as JBP's it is one of the best, but not what it used to be. It is kind of like Kate Upton putting on 75 pounds.

Again if I am out of line forgive me, but when I hear what is possible with this tree and I see it with this tree I wonder why it is so seldom done? How can you not love this tree and admire it's creator's artistry?

 

[barrosinc]

Me goofing around:

I thought this tree was a lot smaller!

 

[Adair M]

Vance,

JBP needle length is manageable. Want longer needles? Decandle early in the summer so that the new needles have longer to grow. Want shorter needles? Decandle later in the summer.

That said, Mother Nature gets involved, too. Sometimes the summer is cooler/hotter/wetter/dryer than we expect and the needles don't turn out exactly what we expect.

Sometimes the artist chooses not to decandle so the tree is allowed to grow out for a year. Decandling IS stressful to the tree.

As I type this Eric has not responded to my inquiry about all the work involved to get the tree "show ready". I ask this, not for myself, because I am also in the process of prepping my JBP for Boon's show, but so that others might hear it from another source.

Look carefully at the 2009 image. Every twig is wired and set "just so". There are no hanging needles. You barely see the woody twigs below the needle tufts. This takes a huge amount of time and effort to achieve. That, combined with the shorter needles produced that image.

But it's something like what athletes do to prepare for the Olympics: they try to manage their training and fitness to peak right at that particular time every 4 years. Same with trees.

 

[Eric Schrader]

It is kind of like Kate Upton putting on 75 pounds.

LOL.

There are multiple things going on here. Let me see if I can explain how I see the situation.

1. Aesthetic preference - There is a preference that is personal, based on your own experience that will tell you how full you like your trees. This tree is far less full than many pines I've seen in Japan. But, it's a taller and more elegant tree so I see your point about not wanting the foliage to overpower the trunk. Still, I'll probably not change it since I like it this way. I think you (Vance and Kennedy among others) liking trees to be more sparse is great, it's just not how I choose to style my trees.

2. There is a different experience from a photo and in person. I've always felt that the best trees do not photograph well and that trees that do photograph well are sometimes boring to see in person. This tree may just look like a green mass to you in a photo, but in person there is an intricate interplay of branching that delights my eye as I walk in front of it. The key branch and the middle of the front of the crown are both places where the intricacy of the branching is particularly delightful.

3. Artistic bravado - it's harder to have a dense, properly ramified tree than a sparse one. So perhaps I'm a braggart.

4. Horticultural challenge - Regarding the length of the needles...I know how to make them shorter, like the photo that you pasted in. But, the health of my trees is always my primary concern. Part of the reason I will not show this tree in the next year is that the needles are longer than they should be for a show...perhaps by about 1/2". They look fine, but they could look better. I also left a couple of the branches with the spring growth on them to make them healthier relative to the rest of the tree. If I had decandled a week or two later in the summer, or fertilized less in the fall, I would have had shorter needles, but a less healthy tree. Since I had not planned to show this tree I was more concerned about the health than the needle length. What I was trying to do this year is restore the tree to perfect balance, knowing that the cost of doing so was a tree that is not aesthetically perfect.

Now that you read all that here's a nice photo.

 

[Eric Schrader]

As I type this Eric has not responded to my inquiry about all the work involved to get the tree "show ready". I ask this, not for myself, because I am also in the process of prepping my JBP for Boon's show, but so that others might hear it from another source.

A full wiring and adjustment on this tree would probably take me about two days of work. Like 15-18 hours. Luckily, not all branches need to be wired every year. With regular decandling the wire can stay on many of the branches 2-3 years. I tend to leave on any wire I can, remove some and add more.

From the present condition to a show I'd expect to spend 8-10 hours wiring. Most of the wire that's on right now was put on in prior to the 2012 growing season (like November 2011) so there are three season's worth of growth on the tree. That means that the twigs are all mostly 1-2 inches longer than the wire which means that the tips can't be precisely controlled by the wire the way they could if the wire went to just behind this year's new set of needles.

 

[jeanluc83]

This is a fantastic tree. It does make me wonder though, when it comes time to repot, how will you keep the bark intact? I think I've seen repotting pictures where the trunk is wrapped with a towel but it seems like that could cause problems as well.

 

[Adair M]

Thanks, Eric,

With my tree at Boon's that I wired last year, I was able to take the little hooks and reposition them so that I did not have to completely remove and rewire. Still had to add lots of detail wiring.

 

[Skinnygoomba]

Really gorgeous work Eric. This tree is certainly inspiring to behold.

 

[Adair M]

Jeanluc,

We don't touch the trunk when reporting.

The process: first cut the wires securing the tree in from the bottom of the pot. Then use a sicle to separate the root ball from the sides of the pot. Then, push up from the front from under a branch. The root ball should separate from the pot. But, lift up from strong branches, and not the trunk. You don't have to grab the branch. Just place your fingers or hand under the branches and lift. You may need someone to hold the pot down as it's lifted.

Sometimes it takes two people. When working the roots, start with the bottom. Tilt the tree on its side, so that the bottom of the root ball is vertical. When you do this, the trunk will be horizontal. So, let the trunk hang over the edge of the table so the branches won't get crushed. I would think that Eric's tree is a "two person tree". One to hold it in position while the other works the roots. Once the bottom is done, you stand it back up and do the sides.

 

[Dav4]

I could live with a chubby Kate Upton for 2 out of 3 years


Great tree...chubby or thin.

 

[aframe]

Me goofing around:

YEAH GIANTS!!!
Mr. Schrader - Fantastic work. Very beautiful.
The things I love about this tree are almost too numerous to list here and rival any MLB world championship. and thanks for the work you've put into documenting this tree.

 

[Vance Wood]

LOL.

There are multiple things going on here. Let me see if I can explain how I see the situation.

1. Aesthetic preference - There is a preference that is personal, based on your own experience that will tell you how full you like your trees. This tree is far less full than many pines I've seen in Japan. But, it's a taller and more elegant tree so I see your point about not wanting the foliage to overpower the trunk. Still, I'll probably not change it since I like it this way. I think you (Vance and Kennedy among others) liking trees to be more sparse is great, it's just not how I choose to style my trees.

2. There is a different experience from a photo and in person. I've always felt that the best trees do not photograph well and that trees that do photograph well are sometimes boring to see in person. This tree may just look like a green mass to you in a photo, but in person there is an intricate interplay of branching that delights my eye as I walk in front of it. The key branch and the middle of the front of the crown are both places where the intricacy of the branching is particularly delightful.

3. Artistic bravado - it's harder to have a dense, properly ramified tree than a sparse one. So perhaps I'm a braggart.

4. Horticultural challenge - Regarding the length of the needles...I know how to make them shorter, like the photo that you pasted in. But, the health of my trees is always my primary concern. Part of the reason I will not show this tree in the next year is that the needles are longer than they should be for a show...perhaps by about 1/2". They look fine, but they could look better. I also left a couple of the branches with the spring growth on them to make them healthier relative to the rest of the tree. If I had decandled a week or two later in the summer, or fertilized less in the fall, I would have had shorter needles, but a less healthy tree. Since I had not planned to show this tree I was more concerned about the health than the needle length. What I was trying to do this year is restore the tree to perfect balance, knowing that the cost of doing so was a tree that is not aesthetically perfect.

Now that you read all that here's a nice photo.

In short you are telling me that yes you can induce shorter needles IF-----and that's fine. You seem to indicate that it may or may not be a good idea to continue with the practice year after year. That too is fine; you need to restore balance; and that would suggest the practice of continual needle reduction would indeed put the tree into a state of unbalance.

So----the assumption I am left to come to is that short needles and compact growth is possible if I am willing to jump through an abundance of hoops where as not going through those hoops would yield a tree with very long needles. Is this a more or less an accurate analysis of the process?

 

[MACH5]

Just caught up with this thread. Fantastic work styled with the sensitivity and finesse of an artist with the know how of a pro. Thanks for sharing. Very inspiring!

 

[Adair M]

Vance,

Yes, needle length on JBP is managed by decandling. Once you know how, it's not difficult. Like riding a bike. You CAN make it a complicated process, if you want. The main thing is to learn when to do it.

For folks living in the northern (cooler) climates, decandle early, those of us in the south, decandle later.

After a couple years, you'll figure out when it works best.

Now, if your remarks about "jumping through hoops" is about the detail wiring process, that would apply to any pine. Including Mugo!

 

[Eric Schrader]

In short you are telling me that yes you can induce shorter needles IF-----and that's fine. You seem to indicate that it may or may not be a good idea to continue with the practice year after year. That too is fine; you need to restore balance; and that would suggest the practice of continual needle reduction would indeed put the tree into a state of unbalance.

So----the assumption I am left to come to is that short needles and compact growth is possible if I am willing to jump through an abundance of hoops where as not going through those hoops would yield a tree with very long needles. Is this a more or less an accurate analysis of the process?

JBP are marginal growers in San Francisco. The summers are a bit too cold for them to grow ideally. So, I decandle early to make up for the unpredictable nature of the fog.

In any given year I'd say that about 25-40% of my JBP's end up with good needle length. Last year was a very bad year, and this was actually pretty good. I thought things were not going well at the beginning of September so I started pumping MG into the trees to get them along. For the smaller trees where I didn't do this, the needles are shorter. For the trees where I did do it, the needles are longer. They were all decandled at the same time.

I'll see if I can find the time to share some more. I have about a dozen pines to get through wiring and needle pulling, most are smaller and younger than the one in this thread.

In the last ten years, I've skipped decandling this tree twice. But I almost always leave at least one or two small branches alone at decandling time. The interior branching on the bottom is always relatively weak. Rather than lose it, I'd rather endure a few long needles.

Isn't bonsai all about jumping through hoops? The upsides of some material are also the downsides if you look at it a different way. JBP are super vigorous, so you have to do extra work to control the vigor. Other trees are much slower, so you have to sit and wait longer before you can do something.

 

[barrosinc]

noob question: is that a regular jbp? the bark looks amazing.

 

[Adair M]

Yes, a regular JBP.

One of the features of JBP is the bark.

Some grow plates of bark, others are flakey, like tis one.

Cork Bark JBP grow even more bark, but they are much less vigorous. It's hard to find one of those that make good bonsai. They're grown more as a novelty.

 

[Adair M]

I'm not trying to hijack Eric's thread, but here is my JBP I keep at Boon's. Last week I was there and pulled needles. Except for a few that are on interior buds, just as Eric stated. These buds were not decandled last summer as they were weak, so we let the grow

Just before the show, I'll cut them in half so the will be the same length as the others.

If you're wondering, I've only detail wired the bottom branches. See how full they look compared with the upper branches? Before I started wiring they looked the same as the upper branches. Detail wiring and precise positioning changes the tree's appearance a lot.

Bjorn demonstrates this a lot in his YouTube videos, "the bonsai art of Japan".

 

[aframe]

Rather than lose it, I'd rather endure a few long needles.

Isn't bonsai all about jumping through hoops? The upsides of some material are also the downsides if you look at it a different way. .

Amen brother.