Large Trident Progression

[Rodrigo]

Yeah that's also a good point. The healthier the tree, the less likely it is to get fungi and it definitely wasn't the healthiest last year. I hope that with sunlight, the dormant spray I sprayed a couple of weeks ago, and the systemic fungicide, I covered all my bases and it can grow well this year.

I also plan on taking cuttings this year so I can try to use them as root grafts next spring to close some of the gaps in the nebari.

 

[Rodrigo]

The colors on this trident are super vibrant in the spring. Can't wait to see it bud out when it's more developed! It also puts on a good show in the fall. Here are some update pics from a few days ago




Does anyone have any tips on developing the next trunk section while at the same time working on the two branches I grafted last year? Should I be cutting those two back short or start building thickness and secondary branching already? The internode are quite long so I don't know how well they would ramify

 

[Rodrigo]

Well this tree has been growing very well up until yesterday. I sprayed most of my trees with malathion on 4/11 and the next day this trident as well my only other one started getting brown spots on leaves. I don't think it's the malathion since I sprayed in the late evening so it had time to dry before the sun hit it.
After doing some research, online in general and on @Smoke's thread, I think it could be anthracnose (?). The thing is I sprayed this tree with lime sulfur in the fall, then again at bud break, followed by an application of Bonide Infuse systemic granular. Could anthracnose still be the cause after all that? It has been a pretty wet spring so far.


It's also affecting the terminal buds of a several of the shoots coming from the newly grafted branch, which is unfortunate.


Any thoughts on what it is and how to treat it?

 

[leatherback]

Well this tree has been growing very well up until yesterday. I sprayed most of my trees with malathion on 4/11 and the next day this trident as well my only other one started getting brown spots on leaves. I don't think it's the malathion

Two options in my view:

- Either this has been happening for a long time and you have not seen it before
- It is the spraying

As a side-note.. Do you have insects that harm tridents there? Here they seem to be pretty much bullet-proof when it comes to insects? What was munching on them that you had to bring out the machine-gun insecticide?

edit: check this https://extension.umd.edu/resource/fertilizer-or-pesticide-burn-vegetable-leaves

 

[Rodrigo]

Two options in my view:

- Either this has been happening for a long time and you have not seen it before
- It is the spraying

As a side-note.. Do you have insects that harm tridents there? Here they seem to be pretty much bullet-proof when it comes to insects? What was munching on them that you had to bring out the machine-gun insecticide?

edit: check this https://extension.umd.edu/resource/fertilizer-or-pesticide-burn-vegetable-leaves

I appreciate the I put!

I'm out there multiple times a day inspecting them and only have a handful of trees and I definitely hadn't seen those spots on either trident. It was only the day after the insecticide spray that they appeared.
That being said, last year it did have fungal issues, which is why I sprayed lime sulfur twice and systemic granular. I'd think that between those three applications I would be covered on fungi? Are you saying you don't think it's anthracnose necessarily?

As far as the insecticide spraying, it was more of a preventive measure. I just moved to this house so I'm not too sure of pests around here yet but I do see evidence of borers in the trees around the yard and neighborhood as well as plenty of caterpillars and other leaf-eating pests. I was following Bjon's recommendation of what and when to spray since he mentioned that he sprays all of his trees regardless of conifer or deciduous so I didn't think it'd be a problem. It's my first time using malathion.

Here is the rest of the tree, it's otherwise very healthy and growing well. Should I remove the damaged leaves?

 

[Rodrigo]

Does anyone else have any thoughts on what it could be or if I should remove the affected leaves?

 

[james]

I have struggled with fungus on trident. Done just about everything described here, and suggestions from others I trust.

After trident put down in autumn, sprayed with lime sulfur. Heavily treated with anti fungals last year. This year, most growth came out well. Limited number of branches and trees had some fungal damage when pushing this year, mostly evident by curling, browning on edges. Began with systemic fungals on soil, and drench. Most all look better, importantly newest leaves look clean. One tree, leaf curling worse, which I think is damage from fungicide drench plus sun.

I think anti fungals can themselves can make most damaged leaves look worse. The key is new leaves, if look ok, keep. Regarding damaged leaves, if still green and don’t have a lot of brown or fuzz on them, leave on. Keep on with anti fungals, and those leaves will drop off if too far gone, otherwise they are helping the tree. You want a vigors tree, leave as much green on as possible. Don’t cut back

 

[Hack Yeah!]

I've read many posts here with similar issues, I think sometimes the issue could be solved with mitigating your water pH. I don't have proper documentation but in my last season of growing some of my maple seemed to do better using miracid fertilizer. Just something to consider

 

[Rodrigo]

Woke up to bad news with this trident this morning. The new apex I had grafted was on the floor next to the tree.. At first I was trying to figure out if there had need a Strom with high winds overnight but there was no other evidence of branches in the floor or other trees on the ground.
Then I remembered that a couple of weeks ago I'd taken off the cut paste to check on the graft and it looked like it was creating callous unevenly around the graft. I figured it just needed more time and wasn't going to cut the parent branch off yet but I didn't think it would just fall of on its own.






Did it just not take and that's why it fell off? Did I do something wrong or what could've caused that? I scored the branch so it was definitely making good contact with the cambium of the tree.

I still have two branches I could use to try again. Can I still do it now or do I need to wait till spring?

 

[SeanS]

I’m not sure I understand. Are those latest photos from before the graft fell off? The photos look to me like a thread graft still attached to the tree

 

[Rodrigo]

Sorry, I should've specified better lol. No, those pictures are of the graft before it fell off. I was trying to show how the callous wasn't even all the way around and asking if that's why it fell off on its own

 

[Hack Yeah!]

You never cut the donor side? I'd guess some critter helped break it

 

[MHBonsai]

In my experience...if your graft is the highest point on the tree that has any green leaves, it's incredible difficult to get it to fuse with tridents and maples. There just isn't enough sap movement to drive the grafting to be successful, and the healing to happen. The grafted scion will swell like yours has, but the base trunk has nothing happening besides just sealing the wounds...no really growth driving the process of joining the grafted branch with the trunk. Bummer!

 

[Rodrigo]

You never cut the donor side? I'd guess some critter helped break it

No I didn't cut it at all. I was going to start scoring the underside since it seemed to be almost double as thick but then found this lol

In my experience...if your graft is the highest point on the tree that has any green leaves, it's incredible difficult to get it to fuse with tridents and maples. There just isn't enough sap movement to drive the grafting to be successful, and the healing to happen. The grafted scion will swell like yours has, but the base trunk has nothing happening besides just sealing the wounds...no really growth driving the process of joining the grafted branch with the trunk. Bummer!

Dang that sucks to hear.. Is there no way to mitigate that! Maybe scoring around the graft a bit more than normal? Or any other kind of graft that has better results high up on the tree? Because without an apex it might be a little difficult to make a good tree

 

[Rodrigo]

In my experience...if your graft is the highest point on the tree that has any green leaves, it's incredible difficult to get it to fuse with tridents and maples. There just isn't enough sap movement to drive the grafting to be successful, and the healing to happen. The grafted scion will swell like yours has, but the base trunk has nothing happening besides just sealing the wounds...no really growth driving the process of joining the grafted branch with the trunk. Bummer!

Hey @MHBonsai, I've been thinking about what you said about the graft being the highest point and how hard it is to get them to graft.
Do you think if I were to graft another branch now, higher up than my current branch but not as high as the apex graft that failed (so the new graft would still be highest point with green but closer down to another branch), would that get sap moving higher up the trunk and then possibly try the apex again next year?

Anyone else is more than welcome to put in their two cents!

 

[MHBonsai]

Hey @MHBonsai, I've been thinking about what you said about the graft being the highest point and how hard it is to get them to graft.
Do you think if I were to graft another branch now, higher up than my current branch but not as high as the apex graft that failed (so the new graft would still be highest point with green but closer down to another branch), would that get sap moving higher up the trunk and then possibly try the apex again next year?

Anyone else is more than welcome to put in their two cents!

Honestly I think you are fighting a losing battle with grafting an apex in this situation. If it was mine…I would cut my losses and re-chop to the next lowest active branch, drop it back in the ground in full sun for two years to get some serious wound healing and finish building the next section of trunk.

Tridents in the ground can trunk up an inch+ a year depending on climate…use that to rebuild the top. I think that’s a much faster solution than fighting grafts and drilling holes in that sweet beast of a trunk.

 

[Rodrigo]

Honestly I think you are fighting a losing battle with grafting an apex in this situation. If it was mine…I would cut my losses and re-chop to the next lowest active branch, drop it back in the ground in full sun for two years to get some serious wound healing and finish building the next section of trunk.

Tridents in the ground can trunk up an inch+ a year depending on climate…use that to rebuild the top. I think that’s a much faster solution than fighting grafts and drilling holes in that sweet beast of a trunk.

Well I appreciate the feed back. Definitely a bummer but it is what it is. As you said- it's a Trident so it'll grow quick but the original chop scar had healed over seamlessly that it sucks having to ruin it lol.

@BobbyLane, I always admire your transitions from "pine style" to naturalistic style but always thought I had the bones for a good classic bonsai. Do you have any ideas on what you would do if it was yours?

Full tree:

I left the two sacrifice branches to thicken up the lowest branch. I can use either one to graft if I need to.

Closer up:


Side view. The branch in the left is the highest branch on the trunk right now


As a side update, I sprayed daconil a couple of weeks ago and the other graft started growing again fianlly so hopefully that one takes.

 

[BobbyLane]

I dont think it has the bones for any style at this point. It needs a lot of growth and back budding. I would probably put it in the ground and move on to other projects. regarding future branch structures, always up n out for me. The mature tree in the background is a good example, the branches emerge from the trunk rising upward.

 

[BonsaiMatt]

Seems like there is no sap flow to that top section (no live branches), so that is why the graft failed. I doubt you will get a graft to take in that section.

If it were mine, I would feed it aggressively and let it grow a bit wild, and then chop it back and hope for some good back budding. Then build a new apex out of whatever pops.