Bonsai auctions and “imported” trees. Legal or not?

Glaucus said:

Then shut your mouth next time.

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Wow, what's gonna happen next time? Your dad gonna beat up John's dad? Thought unignoring you might yield some sense, but I wuz wrong...

rockm said:

Wow, what's gonna happen next time? Your dad gonna beat up John's dad? Thought unignoring you might yield some sense, but I wuz wrong...

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I was too police last time when you were spewing nonsense, true.
Put me back on ignore then, together with all the other MAGA morons on here.

rockm said:

Wow, what's gonna happen next time? Your dad gonna beat up John's dad? Thought unignoring you might yield some sense, but I wuz wrong...

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it's sad that folks like John who have many years of experience and knowledge get spoken to in such a manner by some clown who has virtually no contributions to the forum aside from snarky posts and no actual trees. This is why senior members post less and less over the years.

Glaucus said:

Wait lol wut?

20 years ago? You know because you 'asked someone'?

Assuming this is true, if you can't source these claims, don't make them.
I don't even know what Facebook seller this is about. But I am kinda sick of people just making shit up here over and over.

To illegally import, you probably have to do it through a ship container. Certainly not impossible. But when claims are made, we need some evidence.
An intermediate country doesn't fully make sense. So are they imported with fake phytosanitary certificates from a third country?

This is getting absurd. I know this is Bonsainut and many people here are just that; nutters. And I know we had a whole bunch of ANTIFA people steal and burn bonsai,

There isn't even a fucking link to this Facebook group in this very thread.

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The 20 year ago thing is an article about a beetle infestation in Washington, and the beetle is non-native and there was a lot of destruction caused because of it. I referenced that as an example of why illegal imports are dangerous to the environment.

I'm making 0% of this up. I contacted someone that is a bonsai apprentice in Japan. I choose to not name him for his own anonymity. I also owe you a grand total of zero evidence for anything.

If you're importing things illegally, then you're going to bring them through locations that are less likely to be scrutinized by US officials. That's my guess, but considering I'm not the one importing things, I don't know why they made those decisions.

Srt8madness said:

Lmao you can say "Vietnam", it isn't a secret. China has been moving tariffed products through Vietnam for years (steel, in my personal experience), I don't think Bonsai would be any different.

Your "confirmation" is incredibly dubious. That would be like a Japanese person asking my opinion on cartel money laundering, I'd have no idea unless I was involved in them.

What would possibly be the benefit of shipping to another country before shipping to the U.S.?? The entry requirements are the same, and it isn't like customs inspects Japanese freight closer than VN. Doesn't pass the smell test.

As far as families bidding on each others trees, I suppose it's possible, but again what would that have to do with illegal imports? An attempt to drive up the price? I guess that's plausible, but in that case, caveat emptor.

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As stated in the response to Glacus - I confirmed with a current bonsai apprentice in Japan. He has first-hand knowledge. I will not name him because he isn't part of this conversation. I've talked to others that have confirmed the same. So yes, they are bringing trees from Japan to Vietnam (I had no idea this was a common thing). Also, no idea why they choose to ship them to Vietnam first. Maybe packaging? USDA agents are more focused on Japan vs. Vietnam? No clue. But yes, they are being brought in illegally. I'm not willing to spend that amount of $$ on trees that have been shipped around the world. Too much money spent on something where I can't be confident on the health of the plant.

I know about the beetle infestation. If you search on here, I brought that up as an example in the past. The topic was not about why there are import restrictions. The topic is evidence of illegally imported trees.
That's why I didn't understand why you'd even bring it up.
If you'd know the actual facts of that story, you'd know these trees invested with citrus longhorn beetle in Washington state were LEGALLY IMPORTED.

If you have zero evidence, then why are you talking about it?
Even your explanation doesn't make sense. If you want to smuggle bonsai from Japan into the US, then bringing them to a third country first doesn't change anything. You'd still need a phytosanitary certificate to get anything into the US. It would make more sense to bring them from Japan to say Mexico, then smuggle them across the US border. Or you could just import some legal bonsai trees from Japan. Might be both easier and cheaper.
You don't even understand your own story. I don't dispute things go into the US illegally. But the whole 'I see trees at show that I can't buy, therefore we know they are illegal' doesn't make any sense.
Neither does 'a bro I know knows a bro, and they told them' is pointless as well.

The other guy with a similar claims says that imported bonsai trees are both not inspected at all and come inside the US directly from Japan without any certification. Or they come into the US with a falsified phytosanitary certificate. Not saying different people can't import trees illegally through different methods. But this is just stories. And it is somehow talking about specific individuals in the US that also seem to be unnamed. I don't really know anything about the US bonsai scene and the personalities involved, but this is just fishy. Maybe the next step will be that this is all somehow Ryan Neil's fault?
Would be good if this type of accusations get moderated.

Glaucus said:

I was too police last time when you were spewing nonsense, true.
Put me back on ignore then, together with all the other MAGA morons on here.

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I'm not a MAGA person you ignoramus. I'm someone who can smell Bullshit a mile off, so no. not a MAGA person and my aversion to your posts... Back on ignore. Feel free to continue with your temper tantrum though.

rockm said:

I'm not a MAGA person you ignoramus. I'm someone who can smell Bullshit a mile off, so no. not a MAGA person... Back on ignore. Feel free to continue with your temper tantrum though.

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Good, then I don't have to deal anymore with your fragile ego. Consider putting some more people on ignore so you also don't bother them.

Glaucus said:

I know about the beetle infestation. If you search on here, I brought that up as an example in the past. The topic was not about why there are import restrictions. The topic is evidence of illegally imported trees.
That's why I didn't understand why you'd even bring it up.
If you'd know the actual facts of that story, you'd know these trees invested with citrus longhorn beetle were LEGALLY IMPORTED.

If you have zero evidence, then why are you talking about it?
Even your explanation doesn't make sense. If you want to smuggle bonsai from Japan into the US, then bringing them to a third country first doesn't change anything. You'd still need a phytosanitary certificate to get anything into the US.
You don't even understand your own story. I don't dispute things go into the US illegally. But the whole 'I see trees at show that I can't buy, therefore we know they are illegal' doesn't make any sense.
Neither does 'a bro I know knows a bro, and they told them' is pointless as well.

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I completely understand my story - it is mine. You seem to refuse to believe it. Which is fine, that's your choice. But has zero relevance to whether the story is valid or not. I said "I owe you zero evidence" that does not mean I lack said evidence. You're an anonymous person on the internet, in a country that is not my own, that has constantly talked as if you are authoritative on US plant import processes. So you have 0 credibility to me.

I never said anything about seeing a tree at a show that I can't buy. Interesting that you choose to bring that up. You accuse me of bringing up irrelevant subjects with pest issues (which is relevant to the on-going conversation, answering the 'why are there import rules in the first place' concept, which underly the entire discussion), but then do the same here by bringing up things you clearly have no idea about (my budget).

I have no idea why they are choosing to bring trees from Japan, to Vietnam, and then to the US. There are lots of reasonable explanations that have been posed, you are just choosing to not believe them (repackaing things, they're buying 5 trees and only sending 2 on to the US, they think people aren't looking for plants coming from Vietnam, etc.). Which is fine - that's your choice. But it is your choice and not an indictment of the reasonableness and/or quality of the explanations provided. So in reality, it seems that your whole contribution to this conversation is what is actually pointless.

If a great tree finds its way to me and is priced appropriately for me at the time, I’m not asking more questions than necessary.
Stolen trees I’d avoid but if somebody imports them without clearing it with the King it doesn’t bother me and they’d have a potential buyer.

chansen said:

I completely understand my story - it is mine. You seem to refuse to believe it. Which is fine, that's your choice. But has zero relevance to whether the story is valid or not. I said "I owe you zero evidence" that does not mean I lack said evidence. You're an anonymous person on the internet, in a country that is not my own, that has constantly talked as if you are authoritative on US plant import processes. So you have 0 credibility to me.

I never said anything about seeing a tree at a show that I can't buy. Interesting that you choose to bring that up. You accuse me of bringing up irrelevant subjects with pest issues (which is relevant to the on-going conversation, answering the 'why are there import rules in the first place' concept, which underly the entire discussion), but then do the same here by bringing up things you clearly have no idea about (my budget).

I have no idea why they are choosing to bring trees from Japan, to Vietnam, and then to the US. There are lots of reasonable explanations that have been posed, you are just choosing to not believe them (repackaing things, they're buying 5 trees and only sending 2 on to the US, they think people aren't looking for plants coming from Vietnam, etc.). Which is fine - that's your choice. But it is your choice and not an indictment of the reasonableness and/or quality of the explanations provided. So in reality, it seems that your whole contribution to this conversation is what is actually pointless.

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If you have evidence, then provide it. Easy! You absolutely owe me evidence, absolutely. Even more so after you claim you have it but just aren't going to provide it because 'I am an anonymous person on the internet'.
Talking about someone with absolutely ZERO credibility. It is YOU telling the stories. And me putting some doubts on it. I don't need credibility to debunk your tall tales, buddy!

Someone else said the thing about the trees at shows. I am critical of this whole group think going on. Everyone has like an anecdote and you are putting it all on a big pile to create a narrative.

No one asked you to explain why import restrictions are in place.

Plants imported from the US coming from Vietnam obviously are also inspected. At customs the USDA agent will only know that they are from Vietnam or Japan after they check the phytosanitary certificate.

Sounds more likely that they add Vietnamese trees while the package of Japanese bonsai is in Vietnam to the shipment from the US, using the Japanese phytosanitary certificate because that's the only one they can get.
I am sure people are finding ways to skimp the edges of the law, or dip over them. Chinese Elm vs Zelkova is a good example. But we had a whole bunch of wild stories and total speculation going on here.

This all started with some Facebook auction, which so far no one has been able to link to, that is auctioning 'shady trees' that are either illegally imported or stolen.
Maybe that's not the right place to add to it your so far unrelated and absolutely confused story you heard from someone apprenticing in Japan.

Glaucus said:

You absolutely owe me evidence, absolutely.

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False. I owe you nothing.

Liar.

Glaucus said:

Liar.

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@flor1 is probably not wrong. But also, I remembered this gem...lol:

Glaucus said:

Liar.

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Amazing how some people are a dick and never being a richard

Glaucus said:

Then shut your mouth next time.

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I used to respect you but now that you have shown your true colors... You are not worth my time!

Nybonsai12 said:

it's sad that folks like John who have many years of experience and knowledge get spoken to in such a manner by some clown who has virtually no contributions to the forum aside from snarky posts and no actual trees. This is why senior members post less and less over the years.

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Thanks NY! This guy has just totally lost his mind. Can't fix STUPID!

I'm gonna close the thread.