Composing your own pine bark?

[Adair M]

Plain inorganic substrate = more water&more fertiliser.

Despite the small scale - this is not my way to do bonsai

Interesting comment. So, Rolf, you don't like inorganic soil because you have to water more often? And give more fertilizer?

Really?

In spite of the greater degree of control you have? Despite the better root systems? Despite having to worry about root rot? Overwatering? Despite having healthier trees?

Really?

That's the equivalent of saying that you don't want to exercise because you might lose weight, you might get a stronger heart, you might become healthier, live longer...

 

[butlern]

Are you guys sifting the composted pine bark? Seems if it's truly composted, then it's mostly fines, yeah?

Perhaps you're using only particles larger than 1/16" (or 1.5 to 2mm range)?

 

[Woody Carverton]

I didn't have a chance to read all the replies, so in case nobody mentioned it already. Using pine bark anywhere in New England is a BAD idea. Your just begging for root rot, Japanese Beetles, and a whole host of other problems.

 

[Vance Wood]

I didn't have a chance to read all the replies, so in case nobody mentioned it already. Using pine bark anywhere in New England is a BAD idea. Your just begging for root rot, Japanese Beetles, and a whole host of other problems.

What makes New England sucn a good/bad place? I am getting the kind of feelingI used to get when people were telling me that you, or anyone cannot grow Mugo Pines here, where ever here might be at the time.

When I first started growing bonsai in 1957 we had to dig our own soil. If you can find a copy of Yuji Yoshimura's book, one of the early editions you may notice that the soil mixes were are concocted from collected materials like clay dug from down deep, forest leaf mold, black or red dirt and clay, and agricultural Sand. You didn't know what you were getting for sure until you started getting failure, or success. We didn't test for PH and didn't know how. We just plugged along and did the best we could and lost very few trees. The idea of using a soilless mix did not dawn on us, that is kind of a recent idea that has become popular. Now---- if you are using something a bit different you are doing it wrong. In fact You are only doing it wrong if your trees are dying. That does not mean that I think a soiless mix is wrong, I just don't think it is the cureall for all things bonsai.

As to the Pine bark I use? It's pretty fine on a whole but tell me this. When is the first and or last time you went into a forest and found a tree growing in a substrait that is anything like a bonsai mix you have ready for a bonsai pot and a tree?

 

[CWTurner]

Hi aphid,

I use a pine bark product and, like @Vance Wood noted its called soil conditioner. Here's the one I find in the Philly area.

Results of sifting here:
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/soil-conditioner-bagged-mix-after-sifting.20284/
CW

 

[MichaelS]

Organic material in a bonsai pot has the potential to develop root rot. Inorganic soil much less so.

I would like you to give me a scientific explanation as to why you think this is the case.

 

[Adair M]

I would like you to give me a scientific explanation as to why you think this is the case.

I don't have controlled tests to cite. But, root rot occurs where there is little oxygen. Anaerobic bacteria set in. Organic break down into small particles, that tend to bind the larger soil components much like mortar. Plus, the generallly hold more water. So, it creates a moist environment with little air exchange. Mold, fungus, and anaerobic bacteria thrive, creating conditions for root rot.

But, hey, I'm not stopping you from using it. I just know I have seen it happen with trees that were potted using pine bark as an ingredient. Since I've gone straight inorganic, I haven't had any root rot.

I think that's called "anecdotal evidence", and not considered scientific proof. But I'm not after scientific proof. I just want healthy trees. And I've found that I have healthier trees using inorganic soil.

 

[0soyoung]

But, root rot occurs where there is little oxygen. Anaerobic bacteria set in. Organic break down into small particles, that tend to bind the larger soil components much like mortar. Plus, the generallly hold more water. So, it creates a moist environment with little air exchange.

That is pretty much correct except for some consideration of time scales. Bark actually takes many years to break down into clay. Meanwhile bark is a great growing medium - lots of air filled porosity! I know that Islely and Monrovia use just composted Douglas fir in their growing pots.

On the other hand, your argument is a good one for not using organic fert, unless it is bagged to contain all those nasty organic solids.

 

[MichaelS]

I don't have controlled tests to cite. But, root rot occurs where there is little oxygen. Anaerobic bacteria set in. Organic break down into small particles, that tend to bind the larger soil components much like mortar. Plus, the generallly hold more water. So, it creates a moist environment with little air exchange. Mold, fungus, and anaerobic bacteria thrive, creating conditions for root rot.

But, hey, I'm not stopping you from using it. I just know I have seen it happen with trees that were potted using pine bark as an ingredient. Since I've gone straight inorganic, I haven't had any root rot.

I think that's called "anecdotal evidence", and not considered scientific proof. But I'm not after scientific proof. I just want healthy trees. And I've found that I have healthier trees using inorganic soil.

The amount of water held is directly related to particle size. Now I don't know if you have ever watched the repotting of a pine which has been in 100 % akadama for five or more years but you would notice that the soil has by then been pretty much dissolved into dust. The probability that a soft akadama may have been used is immaterial. The fact is that individual particles are no longer visible yet the root system is healthy which means there is sufficient O2 around the roots. The same applies to organic media. The difference in particle sizes between humus and clay is small. Therefore, the difference in the water held between the two is also negligible. The bark used in potting mixes should ideally be chunky and from mature trees. Young material is as you say flaky and will break down quickly. There is evidence that New Zealand Pinus radiata bark can sit in a pot and remain more or less unaffected for 10 years. (Japanese experience with orchids) In that case it would be as long lasting as akadama if not more. it is important to use a good quality chunky bark and to sieve out particles over about 2 mm or even larger for larger pots. You will absolutely not have root rot problems from using it. Use an untested inferior or potentially contaminated material and anything could happen. But then the same holds true for any substrate. I also think that many times, the substrate used for bonsai in the west is too coarse, especially for old trees, but that's another story.
If you like I can post a picture of the root ball of a JWP which has been in pure bark (maybe with a little sand). It has been in that plastic pot for 4 years now sitting on the ground and watered every day. If any plant was a potential root rot candidate it would be that, yet the roots are perfect and chock full of mycorrhizae. Proof that it is not the bark which causes root rot. It is a combination of other factors. Most often, poor watering technique coupled with too large a pot (the drying is as important as the watering) or a poor quality substrate with the presence of pathogens or wrong pH or too much fertilizer leading to root death or wrong temperatures or any combination of these.

 

[ralf]

Interesting comment. So, Rolf, you don't like inorganic soil because you have to water more often?

Where did you get the feelings from that I do not like inorganic substrate? Or I do not like to water my plants more often? Or the rest of the points you have raised? I have read my post several times to find that but it is not there.

Maybe less quick reading and less feelings could help...

I am doing my plants for joy not for quick results. Overuse of water, oversupply of inorganic fertiliser is for me a problem. If I see it as a problem on a big scale why should I do the same on my yard?

Seedlings like me are often growing on the rotten trunks - because thats nature. Maybe that is reason I do not have a problem with organic substances. Adding pine bark to my inorganic substrate is fairly OK. But I do prefer the sphagnum related substances.

My way - not forcing you to follow.

And by the way my name is RALF.

 

[Adair M]

Sorry, Ralf, didn't mean to mess up your name...

What I took from your post was that using inorganic soil would require you to use more water, and more fertilizer. Which you said is not your way.

My response is by using inorganic soil that drains well, you cannot overwater it. Roots don't sit in soggy soil. Sure, they would be wet, but they would not be immersed in water like they can be with organic soil.

Fertilizer does not get absorbed by inorganic soil. It gets flushed thru pretty quickly. Therefore, for continuous feeding, using the cakes and/or teabags releases a little fertilizer with each watering. When it's time to remove the fertilizer, take away the cakes and tea bags, and by the third watering, all the fertilizer will be gone. This gives you, the grower, more control.

 

[Adair M]

The amount of water held is directly related to particle size. Now I don't know if you have ever watched the repotting of a pine which has been in 100 % akadama for five or more years but you would notice that the soil has by then been pretty much dissolved into dust. The probability that a soft akadama may have been used is immaterial. The fact is that individual particles are no longer visible yet the root system is healthy which means there is sufficient O2 around the roots. The same applies to organic media. The difference in particle sizes between humus and clay is small. Therefore, the difference in the water held between the two is also negligible. The bark used in potting mixes should ideally be chunky and from mature trees. Young material is as you say flaky and will break down quickly. There is evidence that New Zealand Pinus radiata bark can sit in a pot and remain more or less unaffected for 10 years. (Japanese experience with orchids) In that case it would be as long lasting as akadama if not more. it is important to use a good quality chunky bark and to sieve out particles over about 2 mm or even larger for larger pots. You will absolutely not have root rot problems from using it. Use an untested inferior or potentially contaminated material and anything could happen. But then the same holds true for any substrate. I also think that many times, the substrate used for bonsai in the west is too coarse, especially for old trees, but that's another story.
If you like I can post a picture of the root ball of a JWP which has been in pure bark (maybe with a little sand). It has been in that plastic pot for 4 years now sitting on the ground and watered every day. If any plant was a potential root rot candidate it would be that, yet the roots are perfect and chock full of mycorrhizae. Proof that it is not the bark which causes root rot. It is a combination of other factors. Most often, poor watering technique coupled with too large a pot (the drying is as important as the watering) or a poor quality substrate with the presence of pathogens or wrong pH or too much fertilizer leading to root death or wrong temperatures or any combination of these.

Michael, maybe the stuff you get is different from the stuff we get. Ours gets really slimy pretty quickly.

 

[my nellie]

... ...Pine bark and Turface are shaped poorly. They're both rather flat. So over time, the soil mix compacts... ...
Air is crucial for a healthy root system. When we water, the column of water flows down through the open spaces between soil particles. As it descends and drains out the bottom, air is pulled down from to surface to take its place. If the space between particles is tight, little fresh air is brought in... ...

This is very correct!
I remember Mrs. Iris Cohen mentioning the "ball bearing effect" on the IBC (during its old good days...) http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t4731-cinder-as-part-of-bonsai-soil, although the subject was different than the one at the present discussion
"bonsaisr on Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:04 am
There was a discussion on this topic some years ago on the old IBC. Sand or gravel is used in bonsai soil to open up pore spaces so the roots will have more air and better drainage. Think about it. The particle shape that provides the most space is a ball bearing. Use sand or gravel with rounded contours, like aquarium gravel, if it is available. The idea that rough particles promote root division is a pure myth. Root division is initiated on a molecular level, and is influenced by the total environment rather than the particle shape.
Iris"

 

[sorce]

If I see it as a problem on a big scale why should I do the same on my yard?

Amen there!

Sorce

 

[Anthony]

Perhaps no one realises that where Sifu lives is humid.

We are bone dry six months of the year and by the times the rains return, the trees have mastered the soil,
so there is no place for water to collect. In fact when the rain stops we run the risk of wilting foliage, due to no water.

Plus if you use oil meal fertiliser, it will compost, now if you are using the stuff ------------- pellet compost equal to x teaspoons of organic
which filters down into the soil.
So you get the compost material feeding bacteria etc and the roots remain healthy. Plus compost can hold inorganic
fertiliser.

HMM ------ volcanic island ------- lava ----- incomplete / unbalanced glass ----rain -------- primary vegetation adapted to lava flows --------
dies, foliage, roots , flowers compost -------- life forms ----------- lava modified ------------ secondary vegetation ----- trees --------- lush tropical
paradise, And Sifu's world of joy is complete.

Good Day
Anthony

 

[Woody Carverton]

What makes New England sucn a good/bad place? I am getting the kind of feelingI used to get when people were telling me that you, or anyone cannot grow Mugo Pines here, where ever here might be at the time.

In New England as far in as upstate New York we get a lot of easterly storms year round, the humidity is too high, summers too short, and winters too harsh. Pine bark even composted never gets a chance to dry out or even decompose it goes straight to rot. As a result, even if you dont get root rot, the humid pine bark draws in Japanese Beetles which will then lay eggs in your pots just like in your lawn. Especially in your JM's as JM's are one of the Japanese Beetles favorite foods. I get that there is a lot of Mis-information on the web these days. But this information comes from over 10 years of growing bonsai and helping others across New England do the same. I've seen a lot of amazing trees die as a result of people using pine bark soil mixes up here, and although it can be done with A LOT of maintenance, it never ends well for the average grower.

 

[Adair M]

True, Anthony, where I live is usually humid. Not as humid as some places, thankfully!

But inorganic Boon Mix can be used anywhere. You may want to change the proportions of the components if you need more (or less) water retention.

Need more water retention, use more akadama in the mix, or use a smaller particle size. Need even more? Put a top dressing of shredded Orchid moss over the top layer of soil. Need more? Water more often. Maybe shade the pot and soil surface with dark window screen...

The point is, organics are NOT required as a soil component. Inorganic soil promotes a well structured root system. Providing water for the tree is a separate issue. Some trees like more or less water than others. Let's say that some trees need watering twice a day, and some only once. Don't put them next to each other! Put the ones that prefer to be drier on one side of the garden. It's gets water once a day. The water lovers are on the other side, and get watered twice a day. Mixing them would be a headache.

Just as with the trees that like full sun vs those that prefer partial shade. Set up areas of the garden to accommodate their needs.

And then, there's common sense: don't try to grow trees that just don't like your local environment. It would be silly to try to grow delicate Japanese Maples when you live in Death Valley! Or grow Larch when you live in Florida! Unless you are willing to go to extreme measures to simulate a better environment for them! (Like the ski slope in Dubai! )

Plants do not need organic soil. We can provide fertilizer without using compost.

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,

The compost nutrients max out around 2N 1P 1K plus some micronutrients. After 1 month or two, this nutrient is used up.
However the life forms that work with the roots enjoy compost.
Plus the compost holds 20 times it's weight in water.

So you can calculate your water needs, inorganic to organic.
And the compost can hold fertiliser in itself.

This is how you might use compost for Bonsai soils.

BUT remember we still hand water and so it is all individual.

As to Temperates in say the Tropics, --------------- build a cold room, that allows light in and keeps light out if need be.

In a few years if K still has the interest, and now with free solar power, a cold room was planned. About 10 x 10'.
Let you know how the Larch does.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[barrosinc]

Azalea like an acid soil, and pine bark is acid.

Just make sure it doesn't turn rancid.

I don't use too much... and the pumice produced by volcano's down here seem to be a lot drier and rounder and I use a bunch of that. And a softer, more acid soil that looks like kanuma (but isn't) because it breaks down a lot.
My azaleas don't have root rot, so I am happy.

 

[Adair M]

Kanuma is soft and breaks down.

A good mix for azalea is either straight Kanuma, or a mix of Kanuma and pumice.