The "Rules" of bonsai

[wireme]

http://bonsai.zone/index.php/2016/05/27/this-mortal-coil/

That is really damn cool.
To be honest I am totally indifferent towards what's art and what's not. Zero interest really. From my completely uneducated point of view that looks a lot like art to me. And strange and unusual though it may be that looks like a bonsai there too, I'm pretty sure it is.

 

[MichaelS]

I'd love to hear why you say that. Cottonwoods only live about 100 years on average, so 2 of my life times and that trees already done for in theory. I get about 12ft of growth on average a season. I have new branches that sprouted this spring that are already an inch thick and starting to form bark. Your estimate is a bit off, oh but wait, you probably have LOTS of Cottonwoods in Australia so you know how they grow right?
Lol

Aaron

No need to get so defensive aml. I simply mean that to get the thick twisting freeform branches with mature bark on them like the trees in your pic would take more time than one persons bonsai life. I don't care what species of tree it is. The 1 inch thick branches you speak of are useless unless they have the movement and taper as in the real trees. (then you need to wait for the maturity as well) You can't get that by wiring because there would be no taper. So........only the first 1 or 2 inches of the length of that branch is of any use. The rest has to be cut off and then you start again. Ok so that's 1 year down.........The speed of growth of the species makes very little difference. You will discover that as time goes on. But by all means prove me wrong.
Just as an aside, fast growing trees with soft wood make crappy bonsai. You will be frustrated with die back, lack of healing, rot etc. etc. Don't waste your time on them.

 

[Solange]

That is really damn cool.
To be honest I am totally indifferent towards what's art and what's not. Zero interest really. From my completely uneducated point of view that looks a lot like art to me. And strange and unusual though it may be that looks like a bonsai there too, I'm pretty sure it is.

What's funny is that in this post (http://bonsai.zone/index.php/2016/03/04/sind-bonsai-kunst/) he questions if bonsai is art, decides that it is not, and discusses rules. Hahaha

 

[aml1014]

No need to get so defensive aml. I simply mean that to get the thick twisting freeform branches with mature bark on them like the trees in your pic would take more time than one persons bonsai life. I don't care what species of tree it is. The 1 inch thick branches you speak of are useless unless they have the movement and taper as in the real trees. (then you need to wait for the maturity as well) You can't get that by wiring because there would be no taper. So........only the first 1 or 2 inches of the length of that branch is of any use. The rest has to be cut off and then you start again. Ok so that's 1 year down.........The speed of growth of the species makes very little difference. You will discover that as time goes on. But by all means prove me wrong.
Just as an aside, fast growing trees with soft wood make crappy bonsai. You will be frustrated with die back, lack of healing, rot etc. etc. Don't waste your time on them.

Not trying to be too defensive.
I understand to get those same shapes I'll need to do clip and grow. I'm 22 so let's say I cut back to one inch of new growth once a year for twenty years. That puts me at 42 and the branches will be 20 inches longer. I'd say I have enough time. But who knows?lol

Aaron

 

[MichaelS]

What's funny is that in this post (http://bonsai.zone/index.php/2016/03/04/sind-bonsai-kunst/) he questions if bonsai is art, decides that it is not, and discusses rules. Hahaha

Here it is in English (kind of)...............................
Some interesting perspectives. I kind of agree with him but I still feel that it is an art to be able to make a representation of nature but hide any evidence of it. But maybe not! Maybe that too is just part of the craft???


First of all, in my opinion a clear: no.

For me, art is a nonconformity, a play with objects, materials, a different view, representation or shaping. For my sake, a statement, a relation to reality, to the artist, to the future. A change, a clearly recognizable handwriting of the artist.

As long as a bonsai follows "recognized" rules, it is divided into size classes by the designer himself, the gesture of the bonsai follows established forms, orientated exclusively to nature or his presentation is traditionally anchored, he can not be a work of art for me. As long as bonsai are evaluated according to a criteria catalog and approved for exhibitions, designers will follow these rules. But whoever follows these rules does not express himself, is not creative, but a craftsman. And only grinds the millionth nutcracker in shape.

Only the fewest bonsai carry a handwriting of the designer. Maybe in details. Sometimes. However, high-quality trees could have been edited by dozens of top designers, personal expression blurred completely. On the last noelander, a visitor peered at the sign of the exhibition tree and said quite seriously: "Look, a Ferrari." And his companion: "Great, that now also designed trees".

Some designers have taken the first step and created their own new styles so that the handwriting becomes recognizable again. But let us be honest. Naturalism in art has been overhauled for decades; the last form of naturalism was perhaps still the photorealism, also that is decades ago. To imitate nature may have been art in great perfection. But nowadays it is neither new nor creative, but just a look and impression. And naturalism, then, is simply to be called naturalistic design, does not change, but is only directed backwards, is oriented to the given. Perhaps Nick Lenz? Maybe. Approach. A certain shaping game. A few other materials. Sometimes unnatural representations. Nevertheless, there is the traditionally correct shell under each tree.

Where are the designs that play with the shell necessary for the life of Bonsai and the tree itself? Where is the shaping in the tree, which has nothing more to do with nature or familiar forms, but rather, e.g. Architecture or contemporary sculpture? Where are contemporary or totally unfamiliar materials at the shell and where the plants are off the usual trampolines? Where is the presentation contrary to the firmly cemented table manners and where the break with the Japanese and Chinese tradition? Where is a relation to personal background, to one's own history or future?

To declare art as such is not enough for me. Otherwise, every gardener is suddenly an artist and every pruned fruit tree is a work of art. It is not bad if Bonsai is "just" a fascinating craft with absolutely admirable high performances of some designers. Or as a hobby is just fun and recreation. But art is so far

 

[Eric Group]

Here it is in English (kind of)...............................
Some interesting perspectives. I kind of agree with him but I still feel that it is an art to be able to make a representation of nature but hide any evidence of it. But maybe not! Maybe that too is just part of the craft???


First of all, in my opinion a clear: no.

For me, art is a nonconformity, a play with objects, materials, a different view, representation or shaping. For my sake, a statement, a relation to reality, to the artist, to the future. A change, a clearly recognizable handwriting of the artist.

As long as a bonsai follows "recognized" rules, it is divided into size classes by the designer himself, the gesture of the bonsai follows established forms, orientated exclusively to nature or his presentation is traditionally anchored, he can not be a work of art for me. As long as bonsai are evaluated according to a criteria catalog and approved for exhibitions, designers will follow these rules. But whoever follows these rules does not express himself, is not creative, but a craftsman. And only grinds the millionth nutcracker in shape.

Only the fewest bonsai carry a handwriting of the designer. Maybe in details. Sometimes. However, high-quality trees could have been edited by dozens of top designers, personal expression blurred completely. On the last noelander, a visitor peered at the sign of the exhibition tree and said quite seriously: "Look, a Ferrari." And his companion: "Great, that now also designed trees".

Some designers have taken the first step and created their own new styles so that the handwriting becomes recognizable again. But let us be honest. Naturalism in art has been overhauled for decades; the last form of naturalism was perhaps still the photorealism, also that is decades ago. To imitate nature may have been art in great perfection. But nowadays it is neither new nor creative, but just a look and impression. And naturalism, then, is simply to be called naturalistic design, does not change, but is only directed backwards, is oriented to the given. Perhaps Nick Lenz? Maybe. Approach. A certain shaping game. A few other materials. Sometimes unnatural representations. Nevertheless, there is the traditionally correct shell under each tree.

Where are the designs that play with the shell necessary for the life of Bonsai and the tree itself? Where is the shaping in the tree, which has nothing more to do with nature or familiar forms, but rather, e.g. Architecture or contemporary sculpture? Where are contemporary or totally unfamiliar materials at the shell and where the plants are off the usual trampolines? Where is the presentation contrary to the firmly cemented table manners and where the break with the Japanese and Chinese tradition? Where is a relation to personal background, to one's own history or future?

To declare art as such is not enough for me. Otherwise, every gardener is suddenly an artist and every pruned fruit tree is a work of art. It is not bad if Bonsai is "just" a fascinating craft with absolutely admirable high performances of some designers. Or as a hobby is just fun and recreation. But art is so far

You use a lot of words to say very little in this thread and keep digging your hole deeper.

Your notions about bonsai and about art are completely wrong. I have an arts degree, worked in visual arts for the SC Arts Commission for years after graduating college, and I can assure you that all art has some form of rules/guidelines, just as Bonsai does. Rules built around aesthetics, composition, relationship of light to dark, vectors, negative space... and every artist is taught these rules, applies them to their art (be it painting, sculpture, photography, film), and breaks them when they see fit. A painting is a work of art whether it is a realistic landscape that perfectly mirrors the the subject or if it an abstract non-objective modernistic collection of lines and circles... but what the artist does within those guidelines (or outside of them if they take certain artistic liberties) is not just millions of carbon copies of each other (save the Warhol soup cans I suppose?). There is no limit to the combinations of colors, images, styles... that can be applied to any artistic medium to create a one of a kind work of art! Just because two artists studied at the same place and learned the same rules and techniques from the same teacher, it does NOT mean their art will look even mildly similar! By your logic, because they are just applying their knowledge of rules and working within defined guidelines, they are craftsmen not artists? BS.

Bonsai is only different in that it is a living tree we are working with that steadily evolves instead of pen and paper.. We still have aesthetic guidelines to follow, but the artists application of those techniques can lead to drastically different results depending on the artist's vision. That is why bonsai UNDENIABLY IS AN ART FORM. It is a living art form, making it a more challenging medium than most any other, but an art form all the same. Some artists strive for a manicured, highly styled "Classical Japanese" tree, some for a more naturalistic/ rugged look... but they are all doing bonsai and when successfully done either can create a "masterpiece". That is what art is- the ARTIST'S creation. Some are better than others at art/ bonsai, just like some ar better at sports, or... comedy...

I can't tell you how many times when hanging an art show I looked at a painting and made comments about how I didn't think it was art or "pfft I could do that- how is this selling for ___ THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS"?? The response my boss gave me every time? "Well go do it then"! So, MS, if it is simply a craft to learn the "rules" and apply them to a bonsai tree to produce one of these highly stylized gorgeously manicured classically styled trees you keep trying to say are not masterpieces... GO DO IT THEN! It should be easy, right? I await the numerous drool worthy examples of your successful applications and "crafted non-masterpieces".

 

[Djtommy]

You use a lot of words to say very little in this thread and keep digging your hole deeper.

Your notions about bonsai and about art are completely wrong. I have an arts degree, worked in visual arts for the SC Arts Commission for years after graduating college, and I can assure you that all art has some form of rules/guidelines, just as Bonsai does. Rules built around aesthetics, composition, relationship of light to dark, vectors, negative space... and every artist is taught these rules, applies them to their art (be it painting, sculpture, photography, film), and breaks them when they see fit. A painting is a work of art whether it is a realistic landscape that perfectly mirrors the the subject or if it an abstract non-objective modernistic collection of lines and circles... but what the artist does within those guidelines (or outside of them if they take certain artistic liberties) is not just millions of carbon copies of each other (save the Warhol soup cans I suppose?). There is no limit to the combinations of colors, images, styles... that can be applied to any artistic medium to create a one of a kind work of art! Just because two artists studied at the same place and learned the same rules and techniques from the same teacher, it does NOT mean their art will look even mildly similar! By your logic, because they are just applying their knowledge of rules and working within defined guidelines, they are craftsmen not artists? BS.

Bonsai is only different in that it is a living tree we are working with that steadily evolves instead of pen and paper.. We still have aesthetic guidelines to follow, but the artists application of those techniques can lead to drastically different results depending on the artist's vision. That is why bonsai UNDENIABLY IS AN ART FORM. It is a living art form, making it a more challenging medium than most any other, but an art form all the same. Some artists strive for a manicured, highly styled "Classical Japanese" tree, some for a more naturalistic/ rugged look... but they are all doing bonsai and when successfully done either can create a "masterpiece". That is what art is- the ARTIST'S creation. Some are better than others at art/ bonsai, just like some ar better at sports, or... comedy...

I can't tell you how many times when hanging an art show I looked at a painting and made comments about how I didn't think it was art or "pfft I could do that- how is this selling for ___ THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS"?? The response my boss gave me every time? "Well go do it then"! So, MS, if it is simply a craft to learn the "rules" and apply them to a bonsai tree to produce one of these highly stylized gorgeously manicured classically styled trees you keep trying to say are not masterpieces... GO DO IT THEN! It should be easy, right? I await the numerous drool worthy examples of your successful applications and "crafted non-masterpieces".

I do believe those were not his words but a mere translation of a website @Solange posted earlier in this thread.
Fwiw, i also do not agree with the article. In his words mona lisa wouldnt be art...

 

[MichaelS]

"

Eric Group

You use a lot of words to say very little in this thread and keep digging your hole deeper.

They were not my words Eric. They were translated from a German web page.

We still have aesthetic guidelines to follow, but the artists application of those techniques can lead to drastically different results depending on the artist's vision.

Nonsense. It would great if that actually was the case but it isn't. What in fact does happen are million of carbon copies. Just because it is possible does not make it so.

That is why bonsai UNDENIABLY IS AN ART FORM.

CAN be an art form in SOME circumstances. Maybe. Most of the time it is as much art as making a pair of shoes. That by the way does not make it any less valid or valuable.

It is a living art form, making it a more challenging medium than most any other, but an art form all the same. Some artists strive for a manicured, highly styled "Classical Japanese" tree, some for a more naturalistic/ rugged look... but they are all doing bonsai and when successfully done either can create a "masterpiece". That is what art is- the ARTIST'S creation.

Absolute bullshit. Where is all this ''creation'' you speak of?? Are you seriously telling me that every time every one picks up a tree to work on they are creating? That they automatically become artists? Doing something that has been done before is not creating. Show me! If I make a chair that was copied from some other designer, I am an artist? Please!
If your definition of creating is to bring something into existence, then when I create a fire I am an artist.

I can't tell you how many times when hanging an art show I looked at a painting and made comments about how I didn't think it was art or "pfft I could do that- how is this selling for ___ THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS"?? The response my boss gave me every time? "Well go do it then"!

And so why are you telling me this? How does this support your argument? Shit art can still be worth money if it is promoted in the right way. I know that because my wife worked in a US Gallery selling art for many years. Quality has nothing to do with taste. But again, this is irrelevant.

So, MS, if it is simply a craft to learn the "rules" and apply them to a bonsai tree to produce one of these highly stylized gorgeously manicured classically styled trees you keep trying to say are not masterpieces...

Well that's not entirely accurate either. I am willing to admit they are masterpieces of craft just as a beautifully fashioned copy of some historical building would be. It was created by masters of the craft. Not masters of art. (at least not most of them)

According to your definition, if I were to make music composed by someone else, I would be an artist just as the composer because I bring the music into existence. A master musician is not necessarily an artist. A technician yes, not an artist.

I have an arts degree, worked in visual arts for the SC Arts Commission for years after graduating college, and I can assure you that all art has some form of rules/guidelines,

Also wrong. There are no rules in art. I can take a dead dog and hang it from the horn of a rhinoceros standing on a barbecue and it will be art. Shit art but still art. No rules apply.

 

[Anthony]

It begins - yuck ---- Cabin Fever

 

[Anthony]

Hey Guys,

before you kill each other, does anyone have any hardcore research on how long trees can regenerate their
roots and branches for?

Why, ask --------- because, all this Art and Masterpiece stuff depends on if we have been truthfully led to believe
that trees can regenerate almost indefinitely.
Remember, the talk now is trees grow in 2 or 3 feet of soil all around and not deep as the tree is tall.

So far we have found enough fibs to believe that we in the West are being set up.
The find by the latrine in the Bonsai master yard, Japan, has made us very suspicious.

Remember, we are friends please, just sharing ideas over a cuppa.
Pax and lets all sing Kum bya - - apologies couldn't resist.
Have a laugh at me.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[JudyB]

I'd hoped to steer the discussion toward how to make informed choices about when breaking with convention was a good choice and what the trade offs are that go with that

Why give up on this topic, I think it's a good discussion...

 

[JudyB]

That is really damn cool.
To be honest I am totally indifferent towards what's art and what's not. Zero interest really. From my completely uneducated point of view that looks a lot like art to me. And strange and unusual though it may be that looks like a bonsai there too, I'm pretty sure it is.

I think that the presentation overall is art here, but I don't think the tree is actually very good. So are we talking about two different types of art?

 

[Random User]

"does anyone have any hardcore research on how long trees can regenerate their
roots and branches for?"


@ Anthony... the short answer is that it depends on the species.

 

[crust]

"



They were not my words Eric. They were translated from a German web page.


Nonsense. It would great if that actually was the case but it isn't. What in fact does happen are million of carbon copies. Just because it is possible does not make it so.



CAN be an art form in SOME circumstances. Maybe. Most of the time it is as much art as making a pair of shoes. That by the way does not make it any less valid or valuable.


Absolute bullshit. Where is all this ''creation'' you speak of?? Are you seriously telling me that every time every one picks up a tree to work on they are creating? That they automatically become artists? Doing something that has been done before is not creating. Show me! If I make a chair that was copied from some other designer, I am an artist? Please!
If your definition of creating is to bring something into existence, then when I create a fire I am an artist.




And so why are you telling me this? How does this support your argument? Shit art can still be worth money if it is promoted in the right way. I know that because my wife worked in a US Gallery selling art for many years. Quality has nothing to do with taste. But again, this is irrelevant.



Well that's not entirely accurate either. I am willing to admit they are masterpieces of craft just as a beautifully fashioned copy of some historical building would be. It was created by masters of the craft. Not masters of art. (at least not most of them)

According to your definition, if I were to make music composed by someone else, I would be an artist just as the composer because I bring the music into existence. A master musician is not necessarily an artist. A technician yes, not an artist.



Also wrong. There are no rules in art. I can take a dead dog and hang it from the horn of a rhinoceros standing on a barbecue and it will be art. Shit art but still art. No rules apply.

"I can take a dead dog and hang it from the horn of a rhinoceros standing on a barbecue and it will be art", Actually, this would be pretty amazing--one could wonder if the dog was dead before or from the horning--however if it was a dead rhino, or a plastic rhino, the dog clearly was dead before--but maybe sacrificed by impaling it on the plastic rhino horn--so many conundrums--such great art!

 

[Eric Group]

"



They were not my words Eric. They were translated from a German web page.


Nonsense. It would great if that actually was the case but it isn't. What in fact does happen are million of carbon copies. Just because it is possible does not make it so.



CAN be an art form in SOME circumstances. Maybe. Most of the time it is as much art as making a pair of shoes. That by the way does not make it any less valid or valuable.


Absolute bullshit. Where is all this ''creation'' you speak of?? Are you seriously telling me that every time every one picks up a tree to work on they are creating? That they automatically become artists? Doing something that has been done before is not creating. Show me! If I make a chair that was copied from some other designer, I am an artist? Please!
If your definition of creating is to bring something into existence, then when I create a fire I am an artist.




And so why are you telling me this? How does this support your argument? Shit art can still be worth money if it is promoted in the right way. I know that because my wife worked in a US Gallery selling art for many years. Quality has nothing to do with taste. But again, this is irrelevant.



Well that's not entirely accurate either. I am willing to admit they are masterpieces of craft just as a beautifully fashioned copy of some historical building would be. It was created by masters of the craft. Not masters of art. (at least not most of them)

According to your definition, if I were to make music composed by someone else, I would be an artist just as the composer because I bring the music into existence. A master musician is not necessarily an artist. A technician yes, not an artist.



Also wrong. There are no rules in art. I can take a dead dog and hang it from the horn of a rhinoceros standing on a barbecue and it will be art. Shit art but still art. No rules apply.

Well I had a feeling that would spark a response. Not sure why the response had to be something laced with profanity and that kind of attitude... but, if we need to speak on your terms: The only "bullshit" in this thread is YOU trying to tell people it is not your words, then using YOUR WORDS to obtusely defend the position you claim is not your own! Own it or STFU. If you notice, I was not quoting a post where you quoted an article, I was quoting one of your numerous rantings on the subject.

As to what is or is not art, we do not get to decide that! Art, as the saying goes, is in the eye of the beholder. It is totally subjective, and if you notice I try to use the term "guidelines" in place of rules. The most correct thing you said, and something I can agree on- There are no RULES in art, but there also are no RULES in bonsai either, they are aesthetic GUIDELINES- how to achieve a certain look or feel using previously discovered methods. It has never been about "you must follow these rules", it has always been about a teachable method to help creativity be expressed and how to produced a desired result. That is why the "rules" were written down and why vectors and perspective... and all that were taught in basic arts courses... what you do within (or outside of those rules/guidelines), your spin on it, is what makes each work of art different and unique. Again though- art is in the eye of the beholder and what you may not think of as art may be a masterpiece to others. This is what spurred me to comment- you seem to feel you get to decide what is or is not art, or in your other post- what is or is not a masterpiece. NOBODY gets to do that diffinitively. The lack of an easy to recognize definition, that freedom is a big part of what's makes art so great! There was a famous artist some years ago (name escapes me, I am sure google could find it..) who took a regular toilet and put it in his art show. Just a toilet... didn't paint it, didn't change the shape, didn't even make it himself... he did it merely to spark the conversation about what IS art. Is that art? The question was never answered... if someone makes a sculpture that LOOKS LIKE A toilet? Is THAT art? Exactly like a toilet- same size, scale, color... ?
The dead dog scenario you mention, as @crust stated... SURE, that could be art in some views. Again. We do not get to decide, we cannot say anyone else is "wrong" for saying it IS art.. that is what is so maddening about your position. You are making the blanket "yes that is art, no that is not art/a masterpiece" comments... you DO NOT KNOW. Perhaps I would have better understood had you linked the article in the masterpeice thread you made.

Now, all of that said... while I may take offense to your obtuse stance and lack of ownership of what clearly is your opinion... You are entitled to your own opinion, so when I offensively insinuated you were wrong for having one and clearly made you angry.... I WAS IN THE WRONG, and for that I apologize. I was merely trying to solicit a reaction and make a point. We can continue this conversation in a more thoughtful manner going forward if you wish and completely remove all the "BS", and harsh words. I would prefer it that way, and if you are wanting to continue the discussion, for the good of the group let's try that Ok?

IOW, I do respect your opinion and the right to have one, I just disagree with it!

 

[Solange]

Duchamp with his urinal? That was great art, people still argue about it today.

 

[Random User]

@ Anthony

Search for apoptosis in trees, or senescence; I can't remember which one... I know that I have one here that is said to only live for 10 years no matter what you do with them, but for the life of me, I can't remember which one... maybe its "daphne odora"?... but take that with a grain of salt, I'm tired and don't have time to check right now.

 

[Anthony]

Internet Wisdom -

Opinions are like Buttholes -------- everyone has one.

Now we look for the the Other Internet Ghost - The Hidden Agendas

Look I am an Artist - no study - just a natural genius

Load them up - The Internet knows them all - sees all - Mu Ha ha ha

Good Day
Anthony - he who was driven mad by all the Internet.

 

[Anthony]

@SKBonsaiGuy ,

Thank you, yes the Casuarina is supposed to be 50 years as is the Gmelina.
But I am checking when the tree stops repairing the damage ---------- as in repotting and restyling [ after the Masterpiece stage ]

I noted Michaels example of the Juniper and wondered after that stage - what else ?
Do you freeze dry it, try to whittle it back, what happens to the white wood as it decays, will the roots stop etc.

Would cancel all of this talk if you found out most or many would die after 50 years. [ We are at 30. years from seed etc with bought trees at around
65 years ] Bracing for the fall.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[PiñonJ]

@SKBonsaiGuy ,

Thank you, yes the Casuarina is supposed to be 50 years as is the Gmelina.
But I am checking when the tree stops repairing the damage ---------- as in repotting and restyling [ after the Masterpiece stage ]

I noted Michaels example of the Juniper and wondered after that stage - what else ?
Do you freeze dry it, try to whittle it back, what happens to the white wood as it decays, will the roots stop etc.

Would cancel all of this talk if you found out most or many would die after 50 years. [ We are at 30. years from seed etc with bought trees at around
65 years ] Bracing for the fall.
Good Day
Anthony

Who ever said art must be permanent? Andy Goldsworthy has made many ephemeral sculptures.