The "Rules" of bonsai

[Adair M]

Is this really necessary, @Solange? Can we discuss the topic without mocking others?

It's ok, coh. I've weathered far worse than this. At least he's paying attention! And learning stuff in spite of himself.

I agree... I'm an insufferable bore and stickler for details when it comes to bonsai.

There's an ignore button, you know!

 

[Adair M]

Is this really necessary, @Solange? Can we discuss the topic without mocking others?

It's ok, coh. I've weathered far worse than this. At least he's paying attention! And learning stuff in spite of himself.

I agree... I'm an insufferable bore and stickler for details when it comes to bonsai.

There's an ignore button, you know!

 

[Solange]

I really can stand it Mike Do I wish he expressed his interest in sharing his knowledge in a different, more approachable, and perhaps less boastful way? Yes. Happy to have people be more talented than myself. To Adair - I don't put anyone on ignore, because at the end of the day they are free to have their opinion and I can respect that. No need to run.

 

[coh]

It's ok, coh. I've weathered far worse than this. At least he's paying attention! And learning stuff in spite of himself.

I agree... I'm an insufferable bore and stickler for details when it comes to bonsai.

There's an ignore button, you know!

Are you sure, Adair?

Are you sure?

BTW, I think the word is "intense".

 

[M. Frary]

I really can stand it Mike Do I wish he expressed his interest in sharing his knowledge in a different, more approachable, and perhaps less boastful way? Yes. Happy to have people be more talented than myself. To Adair - I don't put anyone on ignore, because at the end of the day they are free to have their opinion and I can respect that. No need to run.

He's really a good and humble guy.
For real. As soon as I get back to Vances I'll take a picture of something he gave to me. I couldn't bring it back last time so I left it there for now.
Don't want to say exactly what it is but when the pictures show up here you will think to yourself"Adair isn't so bad"

 

[Solange]

He's really a good and humble guy.
For real. As soon as I get back to Vances I'll take a picture of something he gave to me. I couldn't bring it back last time so I left it there for now.
Don't want to say exactly what it is but when the pictures show up here you will think to yourself"Adair isn't so bad"

Adair will teach me yet! We are all "not so bad" guys to someone aren't we?

 

[MichaelS]

Then apparently you are not doing "bonsai", at least according to MichaelS and his restrictive way of thinking.

Oh brother. This statement shows a complete misunderstanding of my view.

 

[MichaelS]

I'm sorry, I don't see what you're driving at with this question.

I didn't do something silly like turn the tree upside down and suspend it from cables attached from the ceiling.

I didn't arrange the foliage into a shape that looks like the logo of a football team.

I didn't glue a skull onto the trunk.

But, by breaking up a rather boring large foliage mass into smaller pads, I created more interest, more depth, more complexity. Whereas before the entire tree consisted of three large masses of foliage, it's now layered, the structure supporting the layers is visible, there's more negative space.

Alas, I suppose none of that is new. Appears to be new for this tree. Feels creative to me as I do it.

Take your avatar tree. I haven't been to your place so I'm just estimating that you have at least 4 trees close to this and maybe another 2o or 30 in various stages of development. Your avatar pine would have been wired.....lets see, 5 times? 8 times? lets say 5.
Say an average of 8 main branches. 5 x 8 = 40. So you have wired and adjusted 40 main branches just on this tree. That does not include all the minor branches. Throw in your other trees and give them say 30 branches wired each. We are now getting up to several hundred branches wired. Probably many more. What is the big difference between one branch and the next. There are small differences but not large. It has become a craft. You are bringing each tree into an established conformity.

 

[MichaelS]

Okay. That is the way you want your bonsai to be - no quibble.

But according to your view, the example of Nick Lenz's art that I posted earlier in this thread, is not bonsai/art because the handiwork of Nick's hand is plainly evident. I think this example to be art at a high level, with a living tree in a pot (maybe improperly referred to as 'a bonsai') as the medium.

That is absolutely not art. It is bonsai work and just average at that. Made to a very rigid and well worn formula.There are a million trees just like it. Why not call thing as they are and stop the pretence.

 

[MichaelS]

"Good artists copy, great artists steal" -Picasso.[/QUOTE]
No argument from me.

 

[MichaelS]

One of the many problems with this conversation is that, 15 pages in, no one has really defined what rules you're talking about. Rather than a "rules are guidelines" vs. "I don't need no stinkin' rules" discussion. What don't we redirect slightly, pick a commonly held "rule", and discuss when it is that we'd break with convention.

By way of an example, conventionally styled trees are normally tapered (or, as a "rule", trunks thicken toward the base and branches thicken toward the center). Most of us go to great lengths to ensure that we adhere to this convention. There are countless threads on this site that start with the question - "how do I get rid of inverse taper on this tree". I've even seen a video in which someone tries a very questionable technique of taking a chainsaw and cutting a groove up the base of the trunk so he could wedge the bottom open to correct inverse taper. Whenever one sees "inverse taper" it stands out as a flaw even (I assume) to the "art can't have rules so in your face" crowd. So - I'd argue that, as a rule, we there is a strong preference for conventionally tapered trees.

So, when would you break with this convention? Are there trees with inverse taper that still look natural? Can you show us an example? Would you always ignore this convention because you don't need no stinkin rules? If you did choose to break this convention, as an artist what image would you be trying to convey?

Scott

You need to understand the established rules so you can prove to yourself (not someone else) you are not working blindly. Your eyes are open and you can now consider all things before you work. That's what the rules (or whatever you want to call them) are for. It avoids years of major mistakes that you would make if you went about learning these rules by trial and error. The rules are there to help not hinder.

 

[MichaelS]

This pic is taken from the Web but is very similar to the old cottonwoods by the river here.
They are some of the most beautiful trees around here IMO and they all have knobby trunks and branches.View attachment 122203
I have quite a few cottonwoods I'm training and they will not conform to most rules as I'd like them to be gnarly and wild just like the natives.

Aaron

They are magnificent but unfortunately it will take 2 lifetimes to reproduce.

 

[Adair M]

Take your avatar tree. I haven't been to your place so I'm just estimating that you have at least 4 trees close to this and maybe another 2o or 30 in various stages of development. Your avatar pine would have been wired.....lets see, 5 times? 8 times? lets say 5.
Say an average of 8 main branches. 5 x 8 = 40. So you have wired and adjusted 40 main branches just on this tree. That does not include all the minor branches. Throw in your other trees and give them say 30 branches wired each. We are now getting up to several hundred branches wired. Probably many more. What is the big difference between one branch and the next. There are small differences but not large. It has become a craft. You are bringing each tree into an established conformity.

The wiring part, yes, I will agree with you. Setting the pads??? There's room for style there. Kimura sets pads a little differently than, say, Bjorn does.

There's also different wiring and branch placement for development and show. And then for show, it depends on how far out in the future the show is!

(sorry... I said "depends"! Lol!!)

I will grant you there is more room for creativity with some styles than others. I have a Formal Upright JBP. There's no room for "rule breaking" on that tree! The JWP I just finished styling on the "JWP Pick the Front" thread breaks lots of rules!

 

[MichaelS]

Adair M,

I have a Formal Upright JBP. There's no room for "rule breaking" on that tree!

Are you sure about that????? There's no law that says it has to be a perfect triangle with all the conventional bells and whistles. There is always the possibility that it will look like it came out of a mould if you do that.[/QUOTE]

 

[markyscott]

You need to understand the established rules so you can prove to yourself (not someone else) you are not working blindly. Your eyes are open and you can now consider all things before you work. That's what the rules (or whatever you want to call them) are for. It avoids years of major mistakes that you would make if you went about learning these rules by trial and error. The rules are there to help not hinder.

I agree. I think it's important to understand why things are done by convention. I like to know when I'm being unconventional and why. I'd hoped to steer the discussion toward how to make informed choices about when breaking with convention was a good choice and what the trade offs are that go with that as it's a more interesting (to me) topic. But I give up.

Scott

 

[wireme]

I didn't do something silly like turn the tree upside down and suspend it from cables attached from the ceiling.

That is the silliest thing I've ever heard of, who would ever do such a thing?
Glueing a skunk to the trunk though... There's an idea!

 

[Solange]

That is the silliest thing I've ever heard of, who would ever do such a thing?View attachment 122252View attachment 122253View attachment 122254
Glueing a skunk to the trunk though... There's an idea!

http://bonsai.zone/index.php/2016/05/27/this-mortal-coil/

 

[Solange]

Not a hologram but here is some 3D bonsai for @Anthony http://bonsai.zone/index.php/2016/10/06/bonsai-in-3d/

 

[coh]

I agree. I think it's important to understand why things are done by convention. I like to know when I'm being unconventional and why. I'd hoped to steer the discussion toward how to make informed choices about when breaking with convention was a good choice and what the trade offs are that go with that as it's a more interesting (to me) topic. But I give up.

Scott

This thread has gone off the rails, but if the topic is approached the right way, it should work. Kind of like your soil thread. Maybe try a new thread?

I've only been at this about 5 years and have heard and read the "rules" many times. They definitely have value, especially when one is starting out. But...I've seen many trees, in person and in photos, where the rules are broken to great effect. The oak at the National Exhibition violated the "reverse taper" guideline. There are many trees where branches come off the inside area of a curve (though not necessarily right in the center of the curve). I've seen trees where branches cross the trunk, where there are eye-poking branches, etc. So how does one decide when to break a rule...is it intuition, does one develop the skill after seeing a lot of rule-breakers, something else?

I know in my case, after a couple of years I think I started to become guilty of "seeing rules" as I mentioned earlier. When I'd look at trees I'd see reverse taper (a no-no) instead of an old gnarly trunk, for example. And as I was trying to style my own trees, I'd focus more on what NOT to do...can't have a branch there, can't do this, can't do that...now I'm trying to look at things with more of an open mind and work with what is there, keeping the "rules" in mind but realizing they are just guidelines. I still don't have much to show for it, but I feel like I'm getting past a major hurdle.

 

[aml1014]

They are magnificent but unfortunately it will take 2 lifetimes to reproduce.

I'd love to hear why you say that. Cottonwoods only live about 100 years on average, so 2 of my life times and that trees already done for in theory. I get about 12ft of growth on average a season. I have new branches that sprouted this spring that are already an inch thick and starting to form bark. Your estimate is a bit off, oh but wait, you probably have LOTS of Cottonwoods in Australia so you know how they grow right?
Lol

Aaron