YAMADORI COLLECTING QUESTION

[August44]

I am collecting larger larch up at 6-7000" north of me in the Mts that have been smashed low to the ground with heavy snows for who knows how long. They have 1"-4" trunks and of course they grow in rocks, not big, heavy rocks but 1"-10" in size all the way down on every dig. I work (slowly) with a small pick and a good bar. The rock is granite, so can be broken with enough hammering. It's slow going to say the least. When I finally get a circle around the tree excavated deep enough to be under the roots, I can either role the tree sideways and pry out with a bar or maybe just lift the tree out. In the process almost all of the remaining soil and rocks fall off and the tree is now about bare rooted. Not a situation that I like. I usually pack up in pieces of HD plastic wrapped tight around what's left of the root ball and tapped all around tight. Hard to find any dirt is those areas to add to the tree before packing them up. I always worry about roots drying out and the tree dying. I am thinking about carrying some small bags of damp top soil with me to add to the tree before wrapping it up. I always get them home the same day and soak them in water and a little root stimulant overnight and pot up in the morning in mainly a pumice mix.

Any ideas or suggestions in this type of situation? Thanks in advance for help.

PS: I am collecting these this fall because it is impossible to collect these in the spring because of heavy snows and by the time I can get up there, they have already started to bud out. Also the road/trail (??) up is very bad and I am using a 4 wheeler

 

[Cajunrider]

I am collecting larger larch up at 6-7000" north of me in the Mts that have been smashed low to the ground with heavy snows for who knows how long. They have 1"-4" trunks and of course they grow in rocks, not big, heavy rocks but 1"-10" in size all the way down on every dig. I work (slowly) with a small pick and a good bar. The rock is granite, so can be broken with enough hammering. It's slow going to say the least. When I finally get a circle around the tree excavated deep enough to be under the roots, I can either role the tree sideways and pry out with a bar or maybe just lift the tree out. In the process almost all of the remaining soil and rocks fall off and the tree is now about bare rooted. Not a situation that I like. I usually pack up in pieces of HD plastic wrapped tight around what's left of the root ball and tapped all around tight. Hard to find any dirt is those areas to add to the tree before packing them up. I always worry about roots drying out and the tree dying. I am thinking about carrying some small bags of damp top soil with me to add to the tree before wrapping it up. I always get them home the same day and soak them in water and a little root stimulant overnight and pot up in the morning in mainly a pumice mix.

Any ideas or suggestions in this type of situation? Thanks in advance for help.

PS: I am collecting these this fall because it is impossible to collect these in the spring because of heavy snows and by the time I can get up there, they have already started to bud out. Also the road/trail (??) up is very bad and I am using a 4 wheeler

If I were you, I would carry a bag of bark chips with you up the mountain. The bark chips are light and easier to carry than soil. You can put the bare root ball into the bag of bark chips before wrapping it up. I don't collect in the mountains but when I collect in the high temperature where I live, that's what I do to protect the roots.

 

[19Mateo83]

Damp sphagnum moss should work good too.

 

[PaulH]

I wrap the root ball with damp cloth and this handy stretch wrap.

 

[BrianBay9]

What has your survival rate been? No reason to fix something not broken.

 

[Gabler]

So long as you're keeping the roots cool and moist, it doesn't matter how you transport them. I would mist the inside of an unscented trash bag and wrap up the roots in that bag, no substrate needed. If it's warm and sunny outside, drape a damp towel over the outside of the bag for shade and evaporative cooling. If the tree is still photosynthetically active, I would mist the foliage, too, to reduce moisture demands, or, if it fits, put the whole tree in a bag to seal in moisture for the duration of your ride home.

 

[Alaskanrocket]

Ive collected white spruce in the same type of substrate before, for me it was about a 50% survival rate with a baseline of 2 trees, so I quit trying trees from that area, however spruce are a little more sensitive in my limited experience. Ive had little problems with larch.
Anyways, what ive considered doing is, after the trench is dug wrapping the rootball tight around the outside with maybe sheets or plastic wrap up to the trunk and then sliding a 1/4" piece of ply wood underneath the "root/rockball" so it can be moved by support of the plywood. The whole thing sounds a little wonky which is why i havent really tried it yet. At any rate, maybe this idea can help with brain storming up a better way.

 

[August44]

If I were you, I would carry a bag of bark chips with you up the mountain. The bark chips are light and easier to carry than soil. You can put the bare root ball into the bag of bark chips before wrapping it up. I don't collect in the mountains but when I collect in the high temperature where I live, that's what I do to protect the roots.

Good idea! Thanks

 

[August44]

What has your survival rate been? No reason to fix something not broken.

60-90% depending on where I collect and what the ground is like. These trees are very special quality and not just the normal larch sticking out of the ground so I want to do the best job I can with them.

 

[August44]

So long as you're keeping the roots cool and moist, it doesn't matter how you transport them. I would mist the inside of an unscented trash bag and wrap up the roots in that bag, no substrate needed. If it's warm and sunny outside, drape a damp towel over the outside of the bag for shade and evaporative cooling. If the tree is still photosynthetically active, I would mist the foliage, too, to reduce moisture demands, or, if it fits, put the whole tree in a bag to seal in moisture for the duration of your ride home.

U know u might be correct Gab. As long as the bag is tight, just misting might work. I don't want to screw this up!

 

[Gabler]

U know u might be correct Gab. As long as the bag is tight, just misting might work. I don't want to screw this up!

I don't have a ton of bonsai experience yet, but I do have a large number of successful collections under my belt. Granted, that's more deciduous trees in springtime than conifers in the fall, but I've found that the real risk is in losing fine roots. Keeping soil in the rootball is a means to that end. If the soil falls out, but there's fine roots, the trees should be fine if kept moist and promptly potted into pumice or perlite.

 

[Maros]

I carry fresh moss picked a day or two before and a bottle of water. I moist the moss, put it around the roots and pack it with a stretch wrap like PualH is showing, but I'm using 30cm wide.
When I don't have the moss I usually have some on approach towards the collection site, so I just pick it along the way.

 

[Alaskanrocket]

U know u might be correct Gab. As long as the bag is tight, just misting might work. I don't want to screw this up!

I dont disagree with this thinking, but Im also of the belief that the more fine feeder roots that go undamaged the better off you are, this is speaking in regards to "semi-purposely" bare rooting

 

[bonsaichile]

Damp sphagnum moss should work good too.

this. much lighter to carry too

 

[Gabler]

this. much lighter to carry too

But why carry any substrate at all? Why would you pot up a tree—in the field—in suboptimal substrate?

Wait until you get home and use a proper substrate like pumice (or perlite for larger specimens). For moisture-loving trees, I add in a little bit of extra-coarse vermiculite to hold reserves of water, but otherwise, the goal is to keep the tree in a relatively sterile environment with plenty of airflow to the roots. A newly-collected tree will not be efficient at absorbing water, so it's especially important to have good drainage, so the tree doesn't find itself living in a bog.

 

[The Barber]

I'd just keep a canteen, or a jug of water and newspaper or towels to wrap the roots in to keep them moist, seems like the easiest method to me. They shouldn't dry out much wrapped in plastic unless you tear it while carrying the tree off the mountain.

 

[bonsaichile]

But why carry any substrate at all? Why would you pot up a tree—in the field—in suboptimal substrate?

Wait until you get home and use a proper substrate like pumice (or perlite for larger specimens). For moisture-loving trees, I add in a little bit of extra-coarse vermiculite to hold reserves of water, but otherwise, the goal is to keep the tree in a relatively sterile environment with plenty of airflow to the roots. A newly-collected tree will not be efficient at absorbing water, so it's especially important to have good drainage, so the tree doesn't find itself living in a bog.

but sphagnum moss does promote root growth. I use it to prevent the roots from drying up. It is usually hours between collection and me being back home where I can pot the tree. In pumice. Never perlite

 

[PonderingSage:]

Hey August,
You’re pretty close to the mountains so while you’re up there collecting just maybe keep them in the shade I wouldn’t really be too concerned about packing anything in those bags but definitely keep wrapping them tight, so whatever is still on the routes stays on. I have also moved away from soaking trees when I get home I I think this just gets the soil too heavy and it sloughs off away from the fine roots just my two cents.
I think the hardest thing is tree selection so if you’re able to find some trees that are at least contained a little bit in a semblance of a pocket such as a feature that just looks like a step where it’s contained on one or two sides so you don’t have to chase as many roots, hopefully

 

[August44]

Hey August,
You’re pretty close to the mountains so while you’re up there collecting just maybe keep them in the shade I wouldn’t really be too concerned about packing anything in those bags but definitely keep wrapping them tight, so whatever is still on the routes stays on. I have also moved away from soaking trees when I get home I I think this just gets the soil too heavy and it sloughs off away from the fine roots just my two cents.
I think the hardest thing is tree selection so if you’re able to find some trees that are at least contained a little bit in a semblance of a pocket such as a feature that just looks like a step where it’s contained on one or two sides so you don’t have to chase as many roots, hopefully

Hi Paul, I think it is very necessary to keep as much soil AND moisture around the roots as possible when collecting. Sometimes that is easy when collecting in areas of good soils or "pockets" as you mentioned. Then there are the trees that seem to be in areas where that are very challenging to say the least, no soil to speak of, and lots of rocks big and small. Many times these areas contain very nice trees that can't be found anywhere else, like where you have collected junipers and hackberry. It is hard to find these trees in good digging conditions, so we try to collect them doing our absolute best to make sure that they come home with us alive and that the aftercare is the best possible including bottom heat, and cold tops for trees collected in the fall. We win and we loose at this game. If I find out that an area does not produce enough live trees, I will certainly quit digging there. I am also pretty aware as I dig these trees what is going on around the tree with long side roots that are hard to follow or to the moon tap roots that one will never collect. If that is present, I just cover things back up and move on.

As you might know, I have spent many hours in the mountains looking for and marking trees for collection. I have looked in a bunch of areas, high and low, and very seldom, if ever, do I find a tree growing in a pocket filled with natural duff. If I had to depend on that, I would be out of luck. Certainly wish it were different.

Yes I agree with you on soaking trees overnight. I actually don't do that anymore for the same reason you mentioned. I do make sure that the trees and any soils are wet over-night so humidity is high inside the bag.

 

[River's Edge]

Any ideas or suggestions in this type of situation?

1. Spray bottle to mist the roots and bag before closing and wrapping. keep cool, would not bother adding other material.
2. pure pumice after collection and humidity tent if possible.
3. Consider carefully if the roots can be adapted for Bonsai easily, my experience with trees from similar sites raises a red flag in this aspect.

My strongest suggestion due to the low success rate over time with bare root conifers trees collected from rock sites is to choose other collection sites. Even if some survive the first season or two , often the roots are almost impossible to reduce down and create feeder root formation close enough to the trunk for bonsai pot placement. Many of the trees require slab planting or one of a kind custom containers in the end. Yamadori are often reduced in value when their root structure proves difficult for bonsai purposes. Just a reflection based on my experience .