Would you buy a "finished" tree?

[jimib]

I would. I’ve purchased a couple of trees that are much further along than anything I’ve started from nursery/pre-bonsai stock. I still have my trees on my bench, the ones in nice containers, but it’s nice to have something that appears “finished” as opposed to a bunch of nursery pots and pond baskets displayed on my patio. My wife has only said one thing about my hobby: if it’s going to be displayed on the patio she wants in a nice pot. I don’t think that was too much too ask.

 

[Lorax7]

Sure. I’d buy a finished tree for the same reason that I’d buy a painting or a sculpture that someone else made. To appreciate and enjoy. And bonsai has the added dimension that when you add it to your collection, unless you’re the sort of person who hires someone else to tend to your gardening for you, you inevitably enter into collaboration with the artist(s) that worked on the tree before you.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Probably not. I like trees that I have put my labor into.

 

[Scorpius]

I have several trees that are far along and would do it again in a heartbeat. I'm not going to live forever and I'd like to enjoy some old gnarly looking trees.

 

[bwaynef]

There seems to be a lot of people who wouldn't consider buying a finished tree. This strikes me as a very young-economy position. I think along the west coast, they've already gone through a generation who developed trees and then could no longer care for them due to the age of the caretaker. Some may've languished, but I'm sure some were sold. The rest of the country is going to have a reckoning in a decade or two when there's a glut of trees that've been developed.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

The only way I would accept a finished tree is if one was given to me.

Some of my most important trees were gifts from bonsai friends. They occupy a special place in my heart, and as such, receive the best care, and the best location in my garden. Though I have killed many many trees over the years, I have never killed a gift tree.

 

[Lorax7]

There seems to be a lot of people who wouldn't consider buying a finished tree. This strikes me as a very young-economy position. I think along the west coast, they've already gone through a generation who developed trees and then could no longer care for them due to the age of the caretaker. Some may've languished, but I'm sure some were sold. The rest of the country is going to have a reckoning in a decade or two when there's a glut of trees that've been developed.

I don't think you have to worry too much about there ever being a glut of unwanted finished bonsai. BNut is hardly a representative sample of bonsai owners. For every person on here who says they wouldn't buy a finished tree even if they had virtually unlimited financial resources, there are probably at least 10 bonsai owners who aren't on this forum (or any other online forum) that are content to provide basic care for their trees (water and fertilize it and maybe do a minimal amount of pruning just to maintain the general outer shape of the canopy) and nothing else. No wiring or branch bending. No concerted effort to balance the growth energy of the tree. If the tree's growth gets unruly or it starts to look like it's sick or it needs to be repotted, they take it back to the bonsai shop where they bought it and pay the shop to fix whatever needs fixing. Afterward, they take the tree home and the cycle repeats.

For these folks, bonsai is not so much a hobby as it is an element of patio decor. The tree is primarily just something to enjoy looking at. And, really, there's nothing wrong with that perspective. Not everybody wants to be Picasso or even to pick up a paintbrush, but there are plenty of people who would love to have one of his paintings to hang on their wall.

If you ever watch the Heron's Bonsai channel on YouTube, there's a theme that you'll notice after watching several of Peter Chan's videos: he's routinely working on trees that he already sold years ago because his customers return to have him work on their trees and perform the sort of routine maintenance tasks that BNut folks would rather DIY. When you think about it, it's really not so different from taking your car to the dealership for an oil change.

 

[berzerkules]

Right now I don't have the skill, knowledge or space to properly care for a "finished" tree so, I wouldn't buy one.

Eventually, I would like to test my limits and acquire better trees as I progress. Once I feel like I could create a finished tree myself, I would consider purchasing one. I also have to take my environment into account before purchasing anything. My possible choices would be limited since not many varieties used for bonsai would thrive where I live. I doubt there are many finished trees within a thousand miles of my location.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Welcome to the club!

Guess you need to have some nice trees to get into that club
Once you get up there, straighten out that bonsai scene, will ya?

Finished trees? Yeah, at this point, that’s about all I’m interested in. In fact, I need to cut my collection by about half as it is.

 

[vp999]

These days I actually prefer to buy a refined or "finished" tree. My bonsai skill is not that great yet and while I have trees that im working on, I like to have nice trees to display and decorate the backyard with and motivate me.

 

[vp999]

Does Doug Paul work on his own trees from start to finished? I doubt that.

 

[namnhi]

Nope, I like to work on my stocks even if they are fugly. If you ever get a tree from me, you bet I was the one create majority of it.

 

[MichaelS]

Here’s a tree I bought at the Nationals:

View attachment 406065

And, soon after I purchased it, I put it on display at the Atlanta Bonsai Society fall show at the Atlanta Botanical Gardens.

And, I was one of the judges!

I suggested we give it an “Honorable Mention” award, so that’s the green ribbon.

This is arguably the best Zelkova in the United States. I know I haven’t seen a better one. Neither has Bjorn nor Tyler Sherard.

Here is a bit of history. It was purchased at auction in Japan in 1968 by Sam Beach and imported into the United States. He kept it for about 20 years then sold it to Steve Ohman, who has had it for the 40 years until he sold it to me at the Nationals. I first met Steve at a Boon Intensive Class about 8 years ago. He told me at that time he owned “a really nice zelkova” and showed me pictures of it at that time. He claims that it was owned by Yuji Yoshimura’s father in Japan when it was sold at auction, and was already a highly prized tree:

The tree at time of importation:

View attachment 406066

Back in those days, it still had the smooth bark.

Steve tells me that by his calculations, the tree is 103 years old. Steve sold the tree, even though he still loves it because he wanted to be able to travel and not be tied down to it. And he knew I would take good care of it. I will try to continue to maintain and improve it to the best of my ability. It is a heavy responsibility!

I showed the tree at the Atlanta show because I think it SHOULD be shown. Not to win awards, but to celebrate the art of bonsai. I will show it again at the Winter Silohette show in Kanapolis, NC in December.

Here is a picture Steve gave me of the tree in full fall splendor last year. It’s just starting to turn colors now:

View attachment 406067

And would someone please let @Forsoothe! know about this tree. I believe he has me blocked, and I responded to his challenge on Walter Pall’s Zelkova thread, but I feel this size/shape/color a better match for zelkova than Walter’s red pot. That said, I am on the hunt for an even better pot.

A very nice tree Adair. I pretty sure this tree was featured in International Bonsai some years back - I'll have to look it up but I can't imagine it's a different tree. I remember looking at a pic of the tree just after importation and then another shot of it some years later after being maintained in the US and thinking how poorly it was maintained and how it had declined in quality insofar as the roughness of the tips of the branches. All the fine delicacy was gone. I look forward to seeing how it looks without leaves now. I'm sure you'll do a good job....
As for the pot, I have always believed that a shallow rectangle (preferably grey and smooth textured and unglazed with maybe a step or a line through it - good luck finding one...) complements a mature zelkova like this better than an oval. It seems to give the tree a formal dignity that the curved lines of the oval pots just don't give.
Like the first one on this page...

Kyuzo Murata – Aido Bonsai

Posts sobre Kyuzo Murata escritos por aidobonsai

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[Bonsai Nut]

Does Doug Paul work on his own trees from start to finished? I doubt that.

Some people prefer to paint their own paintings. Some people prefer to own paintings painted by others. Neither approach is bad, just different.

I don't think Doug Paul would suggest that he created those bonsai. He simply traveled the world and cherry-picked trees for his collection, and pays for people to maintain them. He is like the wealthy art collectors of 100 years ago who would travel the world buying works of art... and when they got old they bequeathed their collection to the public as an art museum.

I'm not sure if I were a billionaire I would suddenly go on a bonsai buying spree, but that is because I enjoy the horticulture and the process of creation. My greatest frustration is not that I don't own the best trees, but rather I don't yet have a garden worthy of displaying them. But it will come.

Of course, there are some people for whom acquisition is an ego-driven pursuit. If they spend $5,000 on a finished tree, they believe it suddenly makes them a bonsai master. Also not my thing.

 

[Adair M]

A very nice tree Adair. I pretty sure this tree was featured in International Bonsai some years back - I'll have to look it up but I can't imagine it's a different tree. I remember looking at a pic of the tree just after importation and then another shot of it some years later after being maintained in the US and thinking how poorly it was maintained and how it had declined in quality insofar as the roughness of the tips of the branches. All the fine delicacy was gone. I look forward to seeing how it looks without leaves now. I'm sure you'll do a good job....
As for the pot, I have always believed that a shallow rectangle (preferably grey and smooth textured and unglazed with maybe a step or a line through it - good luck finding one...) complements a mature zelkova like this better than an oval. It seems to give the tree a formal dignity that the curved lines of the oval pots just don't give.
Like the first one on this page...

Kyuzo Murata – Aido Bonsai

Posts sobre Kyuzo Murata escritos por aidobonsai

aidobonsai.com

I don’t know if it was in International Bonsai, but likely it was. And I agree, in the past, it was not maintained as well as it could have been. It was imported over 50 years ago. Did the people who owned it back then have the knowledge to maintain it as Yuji Yoshimura’s father did? The short answer is “No”. So, yes, it got knobby, it lost some ramification, etc. Fortunately, the bones were still there. In the past several years, the tree has been given better care. Bill Valavanis, Bjorn Bjornham, and Tyler Shepard have worked on the tree in the past decade. And they have helped to return it to it’s former glory. I plan to continue to work with Tyler Sherard, a former apprentice under Shinji Suzuki, to continue to improve this tree. I have not seen it yet without leaves, and that will show its real character.

Here is a picture of it that Steve Ohman gave me of it without leaves:



In this photo, you can see there are a couple of pruning scars covered with cut putty. They are still there, but they’re healing. It will take a couple years. One difficult thing about Zelkova is it tends to swell whenever it callouses over.

I agree that it would be better in a rectangle pot. Glazed or unglazed? Not sure. There is a zelkova on the cover of one of the old International Bonsai that is in a glazed rectangle, and I’ve always had that image in my mind as the ideal pairing.

 

[Kanorin]

I'm not sure if I were a billionaire I would suddenly go on a bonsai buying spree, but that is because I enjoy the horticulture and the process of creation.

Same. I would definitely buy a few finished trees if the price and my budget aligned.

 

[Adair M]

I don’t know if it was in International Bonsai, but likely it was. And I agree, in the past, it was not maintained as well as it could have been. It was imported over 50 years ago. Did the people who owned it back then have the knowledge to maintain it as Yuji Yoshimura’s father did? The short answer is “No”. So, yes, it got knobby, it lost some ramification, etc. Fortunately, the bones were still there. In the past several years, the tree has been given better care. Bill Valavanis, Bjorn Bjornham, and Tyler Shepard have worked on the tree in the past decade. And they have helped to return it to it’s former glory. I plan to continue to work with Tyler Sherard, a former apprentice under Shinji Suzuki, to continue to improve this tree. I have not seen it yet without leaves, and that will show its real character.

Here is a picture of it that Steve Ohman gave me of it without leaves:

View attachment 406213

In this photo, you can see there are a couple of pruning scars covered with cut putty. They are still there, but they’re healing. It will take a couple years. One difficult thing about Zelkova is it tends to swell whenever it callouses over.

I agree that it would be better in a rectangle pot. Glazed or unglazed? Not sure. There is a zelkova on the cover of one of the old International Bonsai that is in a glazed rectangle, and I’ve always had that image in my mind as the ideal pairing.

Here’s the zelkova I was talking about with the rectangle pot:



I’m pretty sure that’s an antique Chinese pot.

 

[Underdog]

Love to see it in Fall color Adair. Maybe a bit early down there. Mine are just getting started up here.

 

[bwaynef]

There seems to be a lot of people who wouldn't consider buying a finished tree. ... The rest of the country is going to have a reckoning in a decade or two when there's a glut of trees that've been developed.

I don't think you have to worry too much about there ever being a glut of unwanted finished bonsai.

I wonder what all the people who wouldn't consider buying a finished tree are planning to do with their trees. Is there some tension there? Its not exactly hypocritical, but seems a question worth asking.

---

I've been enjoying the journey. I've been doing this long enough that I should have more results than I can show, but I feel like I've turned a corner and ought to have those results soon enough. That said, I'd buy a finished tree if I could afford it. I always would have. I'd also enjoy a show of recently purchased trees of high quality as well. I may not take bonsai advice from the owners, but I'd still enjoy the trees.

(Also, the award should belong to the tree. I'd tend to them and make sure they went to the next caretaker when I sold it. That'd probably even be a selling point.)

 

[rockm]

I can't believe people actually think there are "finished" trees. Doesn't work that way. It's a silly myth worked up by folks who mostly have issues with another delusion--that they should be the sole proprietor of their trees. That's is extremely short-sighted and mostly the territory of beginners who don't understand bonsai and how it works. I always get a smile from people who grow from seed under the impression they're going to make a bonsai out of that plant. Won't happen, or it will happen--mostly badly, or incompletely...

Simple fact is trees grow, even trees that have been bonsai for 300 years. When you buy a "finished" tree, you're buying into its' future and its past. You become part of its life--trees live a lot longer than humans. Thinking YOU are the "creator" is a little arrogant... "Finished" trees do NOT remain static. They requires not only maintenance, knowledgeable, detailed care, and in most cases, possibly a redesign, or even a complete overhaul down the road. You leave your "mark" on "finished" trees just as much as on trees in development.