Would you buy a "finished" tree?

[Bonsai Nut]

Let's say you wander into the bonsai shop, or go to the vendor area at a show, and there's a beautiful, styled, tree. Would you buy it? The tree is ready to show.

I think people are playing with semantics here. "There's no such thing as a finished tree". "People think they need to grow from a seed." In the context of this thread, @Adair M simply asked - would you buy a show ready tree from someone else?

The argument that people who haven't done so are losers, inexperienced, or have never worked with advanced stock is ludicrous. There is some pretty advanced and expensive pre-bonsai stock floating around out there that is far from show ready, and which requires a ton of skill to develop into a show ready tree. Does Ryan Neil buy finished trees? Or does he buy expensive pre-bonsai material - or expensive yamadori - and make show ready trees for other people to buy?

There are plenty of progression threads on this site of people who obtain very raw stock, and who over the course of a number of years develop it into show ready material. I look at those threads and think "I wish I had bought that raw stock" not "I wish I could buy that show ready tree"... particularly if it means I could buy 10 high quality pre-bonsai for the cost of one tree being displayed at Nationals.

 

[rockm]

I think people are playing with semantics here. "There's no such thing as a finished tree". "People think they need to grow from a seed." In the context of this thread, @Adair M simply asked - would you buy a show ready tree from someone else?

The argument that people who haven't done so are losers, inexperienced, or have never worked with advanced stock is ludicrous. There is some pretty advanced and expensive pre-bonsai stock floating around out there that is far from show ready, and which requires a ton of skill to develop into a show ready tree. Does Ryan Neil buy finished trees? Or does he buy expensive pre-bonsai material - or expensive yamadori - and make show ready trees for other people to buy?

There are plenty of progression threads on this site of people who obtain very raw stock, and who over the course of a number of years develop it into show ready material. I look at those threads and think "I wish I had bought that raw stock" not "I wish I could buy that show ready tree"... particularly if it means I could buy 10 high quality pre-bonsai for the cost of one tree being displayed at Nationals.

FWIW, this entire thread hinges on semantics, really.

I'm not really saying people who say they wouldn't get a "finished" tree are losers. What I'm saying is that many haven't ever worked on more advanced material, yet have ruled such material out--"finished" implies there's nothing more to do. That's not the case. People who have such material know that. People who vow never to get such material close off a viable valuable avenue for bonsai development.

 

[Ohmy222]

if money is not an option then there is no doubt I would buy a finished tree. That Zelkova is stunning. Why would I not want that? It is moving to look at but also something you can dissect to understand how it should be done and the results of the techniques.

 

[LunaticTree]

Already set an order for a very nicely prebonsai from a Japanese Katsura maple. I supose it is always alright to buy whatever you want as long as you are happy with the end Product.
No need to make a car when you can jst buy it right away eh?
They dont come cheap, so it should of course be considered if the Tree is so good that you want to spend a Fortune on it.

 

[Wulfskaar]

In bonsai shows, is it customary or required to list credits for all those involved in the development of a show-ready bonsai?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

What I'm saying is that many haven't ever worked on more advanced material, yet have ruled such material out--"finished" implies there's nothing more to do.

Speaking for myself, I know that trees are never "done". However the way I view it is that for the bonsai artist (or artists) who got a tree into show ready condition - it is their work. I am more interested in creating my own work. Now if I owned a tree that had been styled by someone else, that doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy it, or wouldn't be proud to have it in my garden. I just would think about it a little differently. And I would never take it to a judged show. I might take it to an exhibition if I could tell the story of the tree (versus being portrayed as the creator). So that's why I would usually not be interested in a show ready tree. I guess I have to be careful and never say "never" because I may end up buying one sooner or later - particularly if it is a tree that I have been looking for for a long time.

And just going to say... for every show ready tree that is purchased by a skilled owner who is going to take the tree to new heights, there is probably a show ready tree that is sold to someone without the skill to maintain it. It probably happens more commonly than we realize - a tree that changes hands and then immediately starts to decline.

 

[TomB]

In bonsai shows, is it customary or required to list credits for all those involved in the development of a show-ready bonsai?

No.

 

[Wulfskaar]

No.

Ah. That seems like a good way to start drama amongst bonsai artists!

 

[leatherback]

No.

Some shows include the first styling and/or time in posession.

 

[Pixar]

Nothing like growing you own . Buying an existing tree is like buying a new house

 

[leatherback]

Nothing like growing you own . Buying an existing tree is like buying a new house

I did not build my own house, but just worked on the existing structure. Worked out well.

 

[Adair M]

Speaking for myself, I know that trees are never "done". However the way I view it is that for the bonsai artist (or artists) who got a tree into show ready condition - it is their work. I am more interested in creating my own work. Now if I owned a tree that had been styled by someone else, that doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy it, or wouldn't be proud to have it in my garden. I just would think about it a little differently. And I would never take it to a judged show. I might take it to an exhibition if I could tell the story of the tree (versus being portrayed as the creator). So that's why I would usually not be interested in a show ready tree. I guess I have to careful and never say "never" because I may end up buying one sooner or later - particularly if it is a tree that I have been looking for for a long time.

And just going to say... for every show ready tree that is purchased by a skilled owner who is going to take the tree to new heights, there is probably a show ready tree that is sold to someone without the skill to maintain it. It probably happens more commonly than we realize - a tree that changes hands and then immediately starts to decline.

At judged shows, you can still tell the story of how the tree came to be. I plan to take the Zelkova to the Winter Silohette show. It’s judged. It may, or may not win. But the point is, it is getting shared with all who come to see it. The tree is 100 years old. There’s no way that the styling of that tree is solely any one person’s work. I’ve already listed the provenance as far back as I know it. I doubt Yuji Yoshimura’s father was the first owner. It probably passed thru many hands before Mr. Yoshimura owned it.

I have many trees with provenance. I’m proud to be the current caretaker of them, and hope to improve them.

For what it’s worth, in Japan, they credit the lastest artist who has worked on the tree as the tree’s “artist”. So, in Japan, if John Naka’s Goshin was worked on by Ryan Neil, it would now be considered to be “styled by Ryan Neil”, not Naka. You may disagree with this stance, but that’s the view of it in Japan, or so I’ve been told.

 

[San Franpsycho]

If I was the richest man in the world I'd have two gardens on my estate. One for examples of what I consider the finest work (and I'd host an open house in it a couple times a year for the local bonsai society) and another one (far away from the first) for my own that nobody else had touched..

Not sure what I'd do with ones after they'd significantly outgrown their styling when bought. I guess I'd have to build a new wing guess I'd also put the best examples of my own finished work there.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Ah. That seems like a good way to start drama amongst bonsai artists!

It’s not the artist that wins, but the tree.

 

[Adair M]

Not sure what I'd do with ones after they'd significantly outgrown their styling when bought.

Ah… That’s the REAL art of bonsai! Keeping the trees for the long term. No, you don’t just let them keep getting bigger year after year. You nurture twigs that grow close to the trunk. Eventually, you will cut off the old over grown foliage and cut back to the young foliage close to the trunk. That’s how you keep the trees rejuvenated. It’s not easy. It take skill… both design skill to plan for the future of the tree, and horticultural skill to make it happen.

The real “skill” of bonsai is NOT creating new bonsai from raw stock. That’s easy! The real skill is long term maintenance and refinement!

 

[Wulfskaar]

It’s not the artist that wins, but the tree.

Ah ok. I've never been to a show, so I had no idea how that works.

 

[Lorax7]

Some people prefer to paint their own paintings. Some people prefer to own paintings painted by others. Neither approach is bad, just different.

These things don’t have to be mutually exclusive. I happen to also be a painter and the art on my walls is a mix of my own paintings, paintings that were gifts, and prints or paintings that I bought because I liked the work. I think it would actually be kind of weird if I visited an artist’s house and they only had their own paintings on the wall, nothing by anyone else.

 

[mattspinniken]

People love bonsai for different reasons and that keeps things interesting. I know I am supposed to say its the tree that wins but I care about the artist too and I would assume most care or are at least interested who did the majority of the work on a tree when showing. For me bonsai is a journey between a person and a tree where the tree changes and improves over time while impacting the person in a meaningful way.

Saying that, I would buy a finished tree but from experience I prefer the trees that I have collected, styled, and potted myself. I don't know exactly why, maybe it is an ego thing... shrug.

At the end of the day they are just little trees so lets all go nuts and enjoy the heck out of them.

 

[Pixar]

I did not build my own house, but just worked on the existing structure. Worked out well.

I did get my house built , almost perfect but there's a few things that we missed or could be changed .
Anyway same as a tree or roots ( you can't expect them to pop out where you want them )

 

[Canada Bonsai]

There is a limit to what can be on display at a bonsai exhibition.

I have never met a bonsai hobbyist or pro who did not want to reveal where their tree came from, or who had it before them.

For those who want to know more, there is always a way to find out; a display at an exhibition or an instagram/facebook post is not how one generally acquires detailed information about the history of a bonsai tree, and its absence in those platforms does not mean that it is a secret or does not exist. A conversation at an exhibition, an email, or a phone call, are all ways that have worked for me.

I always found that @MACH5 did a good job at sharing this information clearly and concisely. When I have trees worth sharing in this way, I plan to do the same:

DECIDUOUS | m5bonsaiworks

www.m5bonsaiworks.com